SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I make more than my H--almost twice as much. I work 2 to 3 hours longer per day and bring work home; H does not. We split the daily chores 50/50 (thank god!), but I do ALL the mental work and "noticing" of anything and everything:

Remembering birthdays, holidays, special occasions.
Planning and organizing celebrations, events, get togethers.
Thinking of and buying all the gifts--for everyone including his own mother. Then I wrap them.
Keeping the grocery list going and the shelves replenished.
Remembering and setting up dentist appointments, doctor's appointments, therapy appointments, ordering new contacts for people, face masks when we're low, and cat food from Chewy when the cats are near starvation.
I compare car insurance rates, find the best life insurance policy, keep track of charges on the credit card, and know how much we have in checking at any time.
I know when we get paid and how much we get paid.
I do the taxes or find the person to help me.
I make sure there are new suits and dresses for school dances and that we arrive on time for pictures.
I make sure the kids clean their rooms and read all the emails that the school district sends.
I monitor homework.
I discipline people when it's called for and give hugs when it's not.
I make dinner from scratch almost every night, and two of my kids have Celiac disease so we're freaking gluten free.
I notice when the shower curtain is looking nasty or the floor needs a good scrubbing. My H just does not see dirt--it's a gift. (My H does laundry and dishes, but he does not do deep cleaning. He hasn't cleaned a toilet in years. And no, we don't have a cleaning lady other than moi.)
I took the kids on all their college visits. H stayed home and found something to do.
I install wood floors, love to work on trim (I kill with a miter saw), and basically get shit done. My H does not notice the walls literally falling down around us.
I buy all the cards, bring all the food to every occasion we attend, get all the kids in the car at the same time, and remind my H to fill up the gas tank before we go. Because he won't remember the car was low on gas, so we'll all need to sit at the gas station. It's my job to remind him.
I plan our retirement accounts, budget our money, plan all our vacations top to bottom, help kids fill out FAFSA and college applications, teach them to drive (and go random places for hours and hours as we practice), and I took all three for their driving tests.
I sit at sporting events, parent and teacher conferences, and music concerts.
I go and go and go because life does not stop.

Yes, my H does a load of laundry every day and starts the dishwasher every morning. He's good about making the bed (I leave for work as he's getting up) and changing the cat litter. He reminds the boys to cut the grass and rake the leaves, and sometimes he even cleans the garage. So, we're even. I'm not tired at all! I have no clue why my H is so desperate to stay married and why I often fantasize about living alone. No clue whatsoever. I have no idea what women are complaining about.

OIN, some of use men do close to the same. I don't think anyone is diminishing or discounting what you are doing or contributing in your own relationship so please don't do that to us. If doing all this is a problem then do something about it.

My ex went on one of her I need to get away vacations and I took care of everything for two weeks. I needed to get some help picking the kids up after school since I was still at work, but other than that everything was taken care of 100% by me and it wasn't that much extra work. The house was clean, the laundry was done. To some extent things were actually better. There is no chance she could work half the hours I do and keep up with everything. Though I will admit my ex is a "special" one.

I have no clue why my H is so desperate to stay married and why I often fantasize about living alone.

OIN, if I understand your situation, your husband is a low energy porn addict and you had an affair. You significantly out-earn him, you've waxed and waned on your hatred for him, and you fantasize about leaving him. Seems a helluva lot more concrete and specific than Cheerios and soapstone. What's holding you back?

Sounds unbalanced, OIN, nothing like the division of labor I have observed in most relationships. Still no excuse to cheat, obviously.
My first marriage was like yours in reverse. I did most of the childcare, an absurd amount, actually. Most of the cooking, laundry, cleaning, yard work. I had to, as my XW was busy serially cheating. Finally, her sister came to me, begged me to divorce and offered to testify on my behalf if custody was an issue.
Thumos, you amaze me. You have such a good handle on how abusive this is and what can be expected in the relationship going forward. Yet, 6 years in, you are staying put. I could not do it.

Read the article.

She's not unique in feeling unfulfilled. Not as a wife. Not as a person. Many husbands who work full time and have otherwise "fulfilling careers" maintain similar feelings. I don't recall reading of any interest she had in his emotional fulfillment or what he may have been experiencing while he was married to such a chipper and grateful wife as she was.

She's not unique in feeling somewhat unappreciated. Not as a wife. Not as a person. Many husbands maintain similar feelings of being unappreciated.

It's really unfortunate how she responded in another not-so-unique way to her insecurities and selfish feelings. She did so by throwing her children's welfare and her husband under a bus. In that way, yeah, I see why someone would sense infidelity as an unspoken ingredient to her choices. She's selfish and making selfish choices which harm the people she is supposed to love and protect. And for what? Nothing of substance.

Bottom line, this isn't a W or H thing. This is a selfish-person thing. I suppose at any moment, every person may feel as she said she did/does. But only the selfish act on it... whatever the way (A or something else). Shame on her.

I agree with you fully, NotMyFirstRodeo, that Honor Jones is writing about feeling unfulfilled, and that is not a gender-specific or marriage-specific condition. However, I think she alludes to her feelings and condition as a woman and a wife. She writes about wanting to contemplate "the patriarchy". She describes her marriage as being quite traditional. As an example, she picked out the design finishes for the kitchen. Her husband talked to the architect and builder. She discusses the changes in her body with childbearing and her role as homemaker in detail.

I think the author is inviting the reader into an evaluation of gender roles in marriage. Maybe she's inviting the reader's projection by being so vague. I feel she's trying to provoke controversy and spark conversation. It falls flat for me though.

I agree that her actions are selfish also. Where she loses me personally, in a gender argument or not, is that she never discusses any effort to change her situation once she decides she's unhappy. She writes that she for "so many years as a wife, wrote nothing". She's obviously a writer by profession. What was it about marriage specifically that stopped her from writing? Ring too tight and cutting off her circulation? How does divorce solve the problem.

I am sympathetic with the argument that none of us know what we're getting into with marriage or parenthood. I also feel that we have a duty to try and solve the problems, particularly when we bring a child into the world. I was ignorant of motherhood responsibilities and failed badly as a new mother. My husband and I ran a small business, and I was the head and our founding employee. My husband and I had always worked equally together. We had an office a nice 1.5 mile walk or bike ride from the house. Our new baby care plan was to upgrade the internet connection at the house, and we would each work from home and care for the baby and go into the office on alternate days.

The first night home from the hospital it became clear our childcare plan was ridiculous. The baby cried, and I went into the crib to care for him. My husband came in within minutes, rubbing his eyes and saying he'd take over. I said I think the baby's hungry, and I'm the one who can feed him so go back to bed. I don't feel resentful though. I could have asked my husband to get up and change diapers or rock the baby or feed him formula or pumped breast milk.

I started to bring our baby into the office within a week or two. I had work, and we hadn't made plans for anyone else to do it. We were a startup, not Yahoo, so I breastfed in our server room. There was some comment here criticizing Marissa Mayer. I support her. I guess I'm inviting that criticism. I wasn't trying to be an example. In fact, about 5 years later a young female employee told me how much she admired me coming back to work so soon. Ugh. My husband and I were just clueless new parents trying to figure it out. In retrospect, it seems we thought the baby would just sleep all the time and not require care.

I recall around the time as the Yahoo/Mayers pregnancy there was a female CEO of a large company who resigned to care for her children. I read all the criticism OpEds of her in the Wall Street Journal and how she would set back women's progress in the C-suite. I support her decisions too.

The other large sticking point for me is something KingRat mentioned. If the author was dissatisfied with marriage and one child, why would she have 2 more within 7 years? Honor Jones does not seem to have much introspection or self-awareness. I think I would be wondering what happened just like her ex-husband. I would love to read his essay.

I think I flubbed my references a little bit on Mayer and Sandberg. I said CEO of Facebook initially, and realized that's not right, it's Yahoo (mixed up the two). It was Sandberg I meant to reference (COO of Facebook). So yeah. I'm not trying to shit on the accomplishments of highly accomplished women with that remark either. I think it's amazing and great. EDIT: I continue to flub references because Mayer did have a mother's room built next to her office. Maybe the move was covered by Sandberg in "Lean In" and my brain is a blender. Getting old I guess.

I also think that most people have less capability and sway than her, and telling the average person they can do it is like a professional marathon runner telling you how to run a sub 2:30 marathon. Somehow, we inherently understand that some people have extraordinary physical capabilities we can't match. Yet, when it comes to something less measurable, many people do think that they might have the same emotional energy and ambition of C-suite executives of major companies.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 8:56 PM, Thursday, January 6th]

emergent8, The overeducated descriptor also stood out to me in a negative way but not in a gender-specific way.

Thumos previously commented negatively on being too educated in a discussion of a study of Covid vaccine acceptance based on a FB poll. Sorry, I don't remember the exact comment, but it was something about PhDs and too much education hurting your intelligence. By the way, Thumos, the study was an interesting read and definitely contrary to what I've experienced concerning Covid at colleges/universities. The raw data sample was not reflective of a general population, but maybe it is reflective of a sample who answers Facebook polls.

I was asking myself what too much education is and what qualities it imparts that are negative. Maybe it's that I work at an R1 university and everyone around me has advanced degrees, whether they're actively using that specific education or not. Maybe it's that my husband and I met in grad school and have advanced degrees. We've always valued education, and I can't foresee a situation where too much limits you. The other comment about "thin" subjects confused me too. Is a PhD or an MS too much? Is a Computer Engineering or Chemistry degree ok, but a Music Therapy or English Literature not?

Anyway, I looked up the definition of overeducated, as possibly a pedantic person like myself would do. It refers to having too much academic education for practical purposes or life experience.

My basic Google-Fu skills indicate that Honor Jones graduated in 2008 with a BA in Poetry and either a minor or a dual major in History. I don't know what education an opinion columnist on lifestyle/editor at a major US publication would be expected to hold, but that education seems apropos to me.

Holy moly - EVERYTHING OIN said. Except during my WH's affair(s), I was working 2 or 3 jobs (depending on which affair) while he was "working" (ie sexting/texting/porning, whatever) in his office for 4-5 hrs a day until it was a "reasonable" (2ish pm) time to have a beer in our pub.

My husband cooks most nights. Post affair, He does his own damn laundry now - I won't touch it. He now mows the lawn mostly exclusively (it was about 50/50 pre affair). He has a hobby garden. He cuts wood and builds a fire most winter nights. Those last 3 things are seasonal and very finite. You do the task, it's done. No need to think about it again until the next night or the next week. The mental and emotional weight of most of the stuff in OIN's list is pervasive, constant, absolutely draining.

Do I think Honor was being selfish in her actions? Maybe, probably. But who the fuck am I to judge? I'm the idiot still married to a lazy cheater. And men have been doing similar for ages and YES, if not being openly celebrated for it, at least given a pass for it (Jeff Bezos, anyone? Jesus, what a scumbag. )

I do think she did the right thing in leaving her husband before she cheated on him. He seems OK with it, her kids seem OK (a good chunk of us are children of divorce, we've persevered!) so I don't quite get what all the torches-and-pitchforks attitude is about.

Also, count me in as a woman who will NEVER, EVER get married again. I felt that way even before my WH's affair.

Thumos previously commented negatively on being too educated in a discussion of a study of Covid vaccine acceptance based on a FB poll. Sorry, I don't remember the exact comment, but it was something about PhDs and too much education hurting your intelligence. By the way, Thumos, the study was an interesting read and definitely contrary to what I've experienced concerning Covid at colleges/universities. The raw data sample was not reflective of a general population, but maybe it is reflective of a sample who answers Facebook polls.

Yeah, off topic, but I remember that. It was a news item , but I thought it was a study showing higher skepticism for vaccines among PhDs. I thought it was odd at the time.

The least skeptical were those with Masters degrees, while PhD's were more skeptical.

I don't think it was a Facebook poll. I think it was a study done by academic researchers.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:15 AM, Friday, January 7th]

Good thread

I intended to respond earlier but there was a snowstorm and my eldest’s daycare was closed today so I’m working from home with a toddler today. I also had to zoom with the GP about the baby’s exema, go pickup prescriptions from the pharmacy (cream for said exema, and my husband needed more allergy meds). While I was in the neighbourhood I grabbed a few ingredients for dinner. You know, standard second shift stuff...

Pre-publish edit: UGHHHHH and now I see you’ve made huge changes to your page 8 response to me, and in particular the explanation for "over-educated female" bit, even since I started writing this this afternoon, and I will respect that (your original words had me fired up last night). I have the time or energy to change ALL of this though so (with a few edits) this is what you’re getting……

So here is the thing, this isn’t the only message board I participate on. I am also intermittently active on a board for expectant/new parents - overwhelmingly mothers. Obviously there is a lot of talk about diapers, breastfeeding/pumping, sleep schedules, post-partum depression/anxiety, childcare issues, adjustment to motherhood (yes, things like the loss of identity) and the unrelenting, (often overwhelmingly) mundane drudgery of this new life (note: I assume that this is what Cheerio dust is intended to symbolize in the article). No matter how wanted, planned, and loved a child is, nothing truly prepares you for all of that (man or woman).

In light of the above, a lot of relationship issues show up on this parenting board too. An enormous number of women (myself included) struggle while adapting to the changes to their relationships that inevitably occur once babies are added to the mix (I will note from my own experience that dynamics can change with each additional child). Maybe it’s lack of sleep, maybe it’s hormones, maybe its a disconnect between expectation and reality, but resentment of ones spouse is common – even when that spouse is mostly "good" (many are not). Some marriages are able to withstand the enormous changes that having children bring – some are not. I have NEVER seen someone contemplate separation or divorce blithely. Too often I see women in what I would consider to be unlivable situations trying to "work things out" for the sake of their child (before Linus jumps in because I know he will, I do not suggest that men do not also make pretty terrible sacrifices for their families).

A staggering (and heartbreaking) number of women experience/discover infidelity during pregnancy or when their child(ren) are very young – obviously experiencing this kind of trauma in these circumstances is a special sort of awful. Lately I’ve done a lot of my JFO "triage work" there. I invariably recommend that those women come here for support. Sometimes – certainly not often - I see them post in JFO. I imagine others lurking in the background, like I did, wondering if this is a safe space for them. Whether they (or others) are participating in these conversations, they are reading. I am protective of those women.

In reading this thread, whether people read the article or not, people (especially women) are going to hear that divorce, especially with young children, is selfish and wrong. That it is giving up. That it is worthy of judgment and condemnation. That any unhappiness they have in their marriage, if it doesn’t include beating or cheating, is a frivolous, selfish problem. Or, if they have already chosen to divorce (as others have chimed in) and NOT chosen to air their dirty laundry far and wide, that everyone around them has also passed that judgment. That’s a lot. That’s the kind of thing that keeps people in bad situations. I have read many of your posts – I don’t think that’s what you are going for. I think we should be more careful about judging people’s parenting.

There are a lot of voices here. Some are louder than others. That can be incredibly intimidating to someone new here. It can be silencing. Thumos, it will not surprise anyone if I suggest that you are one those loud voices. I’ve said this to you before, but rightly or wrongly, that means people will listen. Sometimes that is a really great thing. Your perspective has undoubtedly helped many people here. I’ve seen you give great advice. HOW you speak matters though. It has been suggested you tone down the hyperbole. I have pointed out (and provided examples) of comments that come across to me as misogynistic and instead of taking that on, you’ve questioned reality and suggested that I’m imagining it (remind me, what’s that argument tactic called again?).

[Before I let this go, because I know I should, I would like to point out that I am not the one raising patriarchy and empowerment and feminism. Neither is Ms. Jones (I have already pointed out she brings up the patriarchy in passing as an interest vs. blaming it for her unhappiness). I simply don’t see where she is connecting the dissolution of her family to the "empowerment narrative". I don't see her suggesting she is some sort of feminist icon/example - I certainly never said she was. YOU are the one who seems to keep raising it and are bothered by it.]

Anyhow… that’s my feedback . You can take it or leave it. I urge you to at least consider it. Moving on….

Alright, so we disagree on our initial impressions/interpretation of an article - honestly, not a big deal (interesting, but nbd). Although I identify/empathize with Ms. Jones’ struggle to find herself as a new mother, I don’t have a position on her decision to leave her marriage. As indicated, she doesn’t give much information and it’s none of my business anyway. If there is one thing I’ve learned from participating here it’s that everyone’s marriages are different and they get to decide what they are and are not willing to accept in their relationship. Despite the number of posts I’ve made on this topic, I don’t have any skin in this game. The thing is, neither do you…. Right?

Why then, does this particular article bother you SO DEEPLY. Seriously, the amount of vitriol (or snark, again I see you’ve edited a bit) for this author is typically reserved for (other people’s) wayward wives. What is it about this article is hitting a nerve for you? Why did you decide to share it here when it seemingly has nothing to do with infidelity? Why do you connect it? You chose to post in general vs. off-topic. Someone else suggested its because its about vow breaking. That makes sense I suppose, but I’m not sure you endorsed that point (again I could be wrong). You corrected me when I thought you were suggesting she was a wayward. Is the issue women being unhappy/blowing up marriages without "good reason"? I think the conversation could be more focused if you explained the connection a bit better.

I think the discussion really should be whether breaking up the family because you feel constricted by the patriarchal gender roles is best or if attempting to redefine those roles within your family is more effective to progressing away from patriarchal based family and society. From the article I don't see much of the later. She admits that she went into the marriage expecting to be a SAHM with her husband being the protector and provider. That's ok. It's also ok if she decided that didn't really work for her. But from her words, I think she jumped straight from there to divorce was the only way she felt she could truly feel empowered. I think that's sad. For both her and her family.

I never made terrible sacrifices for my family. I never viewed what I was doing as a terrible sacrifice. My life changed, dramatically, but it was fine with me. Pretty much the same for most of the parents I knew, based on our discussions and my observations.

But, perhaps my XW felt differently, although she never communicated it to me. Kids were little. Lots of work for both of us, until the serial cheating began. Left me with no options but to do double duty, as serial cheating is, apparently, time consuming.

With all the modern conveniences available to me, appliances etc. the load was manageable. Toughest part was all the health problems and surgeries my eldest son had and the pneumonias, which were relentless until his heart surgery. Doing all the nebulizing late into the nights, leaving work for doctor appointments for him, physical therapy, multiple major surgeries, IEP appointments etc. were demanding, but only one of us was willing to do it.

Maybe I should have bailed. I was pretty tired, and was skin and bones,and my countertops were no longer giving my life meaning. Took my wife's sister imploring me to divorce to make me leave. Even after reading my wife's s writing about her desire to " stop having sex with strangers" or her awakening me one night when she rolled in drunk at 3 to describe the physique of the pro bike racer she had been with that night, I hung in for two more years.

But, I am glad I raised my boys virtually by myself. We are so bonded, whereas they are not so much to her.

Once she yelled at me " why do they always want you if they are hurt?" I cannot imagine why.

She admits that she went into the marriage expecting to be a SAHM with her husband being the protector and provider. That's ok.

It’s interesting, she doesn’t actually say she was or expected to be a SAHM. I can see why you maybe got that from but it’s not what it says. It reads:

I loved my husband; it’s not that I didn’t. But I felt that he was standing between me and the world, between me and myself. Everything I experienced—relationships, reality, my understanding of my own identity and desires—were filtered through him before I could access them. The worst part was that it wasn’t remotely his fault; this is probably exactly what I asked him to do when we were 21 and first in love, even if I never said it out loud. To shelter me from the elements; to be caring and broad-shouldered. But now it was like I was always on my tiptoes, trying to see around him. I couldn’t see, but I could imagine.

This thing is like a Rorschach test. It provides so little detail that you need to make assumptions, which maybe say more about you than her, to fill in the blanks. I will fully admit that even though it said nothing about her work, I assumed that she was a freelance writer and that part of her frustration was that she never actually found the time or energy to write with three little kids at home. That certainly says something about me.

That second passage you quoted, emergent, ( sorry, I do not know how to do it) sounds like a bunch of word salad. If I got it right, for some reason her husband is blocking her from experiencing the world, relationships, and herself through some sort of filter he presents that she cannot see around? That sounds like complete bullshyte.

It's a common refrain here that a BS is better off getting a divorce than being miserable in a marriage, and the kids are better off too.

Does that only hold true for BS?

I would say it's tougher to not be miserable in a marriage if your spouse turns out to be a lying backstabber who exposed you to STDs, than it is to not be miserable if your main complaint is that your spouse is a filter that prevents you from seeing stuff, or that your countertops were not up to snuff, or that the kids are messy.( nice ron on sentence).

This thing is like a Rorschach test.

That it is. But, most of the time, people only see what they want to see.

I am curious though, what makes any of you think that your right about the intentions, actions, or person behind that article?

Just seen and heard this type of word salad from other space cadets, I guess that is how.