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I can see a WW having the best sex in her life with her OM.

I can see a FWW recovering her marriage and deeply

regret all the damage her affair caused.

I can see a FWW regretting having that sex with

her OM. Though I cannot see a FWW now saying that

the sex with the OM was not the best she ever had.

I can see a FWW saying that the greatest sex she ever had with the OM was not worth it.

The price of getting caught made the affair sex

not worth what she paid for. Though it did not

change how good it was during the affair.

Oldtruck

I agree with the above

I know for a fact that she looks back at the sex she had with her AP with horror.

My main point is this: remorse will completely change the wayward's perspective of the sex with their AP after they become remorseful because it will be seen in the light of truth.

CreateAccount197

I also see how the above can be true. It’s the best you can do and doesn’t happen very often.

The analogy I use is having a great meal that gives you food poisoning. You enjoyed the meal very much but looking back on it makes you ill.

I had the flu 30 years ago and my wife made microwave popcorn. The smell was everywhere. I loved butter popcorn. It took me years to want plain popcorn and still don’t want butter on it.

[This message edited by Michigan at 12:21 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]

Michigan

I disagree with your food poisoning analogy because it does not account for the real change caused by remorse.

Remorse ( contrition and repentance ) causes a wayward to see their affair as evil and to see themselves as filthy needing to be cleansed.

An excellent example of remorse or contrition is David's prayer concerning his adultery with Bathsheba in Psalm 51. In the Psalm he admits his evil, filth and impurity. I doubt he would see his sex with Bathsheba as positive in the light of these descriptors.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 1:09 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]

Thanks for clarifying, especially with this.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:18 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]

I doubt he would see his sex with Bathsheba as positive in the light of these descriptors.

David (WH&AP) was truly remorseful, he went on to marry Bathsheba (WW&AP) who eventually gave birth to King Solomon and is part of the genealogy of Jesus. It worked out great for Uriah (BH).

Even in butforthegraces example - that’s not remorse either. That’s rewriting history to fit a narrative of who you are now. She got religion on so she rewrote history to where she was blameless.

I wasn't suggesting it was remorse. Rather, I was illustrating how changed priorities can also change perspective with respect to feeling good, or bad, about memories of sex. My high school girlfriend gave me every indication, in high school, that she thoroughly enjoyed sex, was eager for it, daydreamed about it, thought up new positions and locations and such, and seemed happy and content while doing it.

Later, when her heart wanted something else (marriage to a religious man), the sex was something bad to her, something she wished she had not done.

ScarredSurvivor

The marriage between David and Bathsheba was not the kind of marriage we think of today.

As you alluded to David was guilty of having Bathsheba's husband, Uriah, killed so he could be with Bathsheba. ( murder )

"2 Samuel: 14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. 15 In it he wrote, “Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”"

David was also a married man when he had sex with Bathsheba so David was a married, murderer who had sex with a married woman.

Additionally, Bathsheba probably had no ability to reject David's advances since she was a commoner and he was the King so David's sex with Bathsheba should be classified as rape.

There is an excellent article you can find by googling the following terms that clearly outlines the accusation that David's sex with Bathsheba was rape: Did King David Rape Bathsheba? Paul Carter The Gospel Coalition

So the story of David and Bathsheba is not the story of WH&AP marrying WW&AP. It is the story of an adulterer, murder and rapist taking a rape victim as wife after killing her husband in ancient times when kings did whatever they wanted and women were property.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 3:19 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]

David (WH&AP) was truly remorseful, he went on to marry Bathsheba (WW&AP) who eventually gave birth to King Solomon and is part of the genealogy of Jesus. It worked out great for Uriah (BH).

That’s not the story I remember. David essentially raped Bathsheba and impregnated her. He tried to manipulate Uriah into coming home to have sex with Bathsheba so as to trick Uriah into raising David’s offspring. When that didn’t work, he just had Uriah killed. Once out of the picture, he took Bathsheba as a wife.

Then I guess as punishment (which makes about as much sense as the rest of the Bible), the innocent offspring had to die and David and Bathsheba’s second child was Soloman.

[This message edited by KingRat at 3:24 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]

Maybe there is some correlation to old BF and GF's.

Some years before I married my WW I had a GF that gave me the best sex of my life. She was a vibrant person, a gymnast, sexually curious, and nearly insatiable.

But at a very basic level, we were mentally / emotionally incompatible, and our backgrounds were so different that we didn't have much in common.

Does the relationship I had with GF (and the sex) have any power over me now? No, not at all. Do I think of her sometimes? Yes, but there is no longing there. Do I reminisce about the sex? Sure, I think of it sometimes but those memories hold no power.

I hope that my WW thinks of her time with OM in a similar way. The difference though is that my relationship with GF harmed no one, whereas WW's affair still hurts me all these years later. I doubt that my pain changes her memories of OM. I wish it would, but I tend to doubt that is true for any WS. In truth we'll never know - this is a subject that can be lied about with impunity.

I've realized that the safest thing to do is to believe that if my WW can lie and get away with it, she will. This is just another aspect of infidelity, the gift that keeps on giving.

[This message edited by nightmare01 at 3:27 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]

nightmare01

Your analogy of affair sex to sex with your old girlfriend is not analogous because sex with your old gf was not evil, filthy or impure and it did not cause enormous pain to yourself or other people.

Your statements also show you don't understand remorse. Remorse is a spiritual rearrangement of the wayward's personality and perspective on their own lives and the affair. It will compel them to be honest about everything.

If you still don't believe everything your wife says she is probably not remorseful.

You should tell her all your thoughts and fears concerning her sex with her AP. If she is remorseful she will address them relentlessly for a sustained period of time.

Remorseful waywards will do anything and everything to address the harm they caused their betrayed spouses. You don't even have to harass them for actions or answers.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 3:50 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]

hikingout, I have read for decades on PA's. I

have read enough WW's posts I reach a point

when you feel you can believe. So I will believe

some OM have been worse, same, better than the

BH. Even at times being the best one ever.

Some WW's lied saying the OM was not better. Some

WW's trying to be gentle yet appear 100% honest

said that having sex is enjoyable, so she enjoyed

the sex with the OM. Though the OM was not better,

though the excitement, newness, getting away with

being bad added to the enjoyment it did not make the

actual sex with the OM better.

Yes doing damage control because after they got

caught they wanted to save their marriage. Their

thoughts, it was bad enough they had lots of sex

with the OM, strike 1.

Then to admit it was unprotected sex, strike 2.

Suicide to reveal strike 3, the OM was better at

sex than the BH. Recovery over.

Yes many WW look back now and say the price they

paid to have that great sex was not worth it.

Too me that is the same as how thrilling it was

to drive a Maserati. But afterwards realizing

on the first trip Home Depot, vacation, camping,

bringing a child to college nothing beats a

Chevy Silverado crew cab at 1/4 of the price.

Buyers remorse yes, but it does not diminish how

well that Maserati/OM performed to the WW.

I have read 2 threads were the WW told the BH the

truth. Because they read that's what they have to

do to recover. They missed the part about not

being brutal. So they told the BH's with average

sized equipment, that could only do it 1 time

for 2 minutes.

How the OM equipment was double in size could

last 20 minutes, and the orgasmed so many times

because the OM would do them 3 times in 1 night.

Then let us not forget the WW that did everything

sexual for their OM that they still refused to do for their BH after the affair.

Then what do almost every WW do?

They trickle truth, trickle truth for years.

Makes it hard for the BH to believe the lying

has ended. Or how the WW stonewalls things till

too many years have gone by and they now claim to

not remember.

Then again we see that some WW's that can remember

decades later. So which WW is telling the truth

on memory vs forgetting.

Then decades later, the BH still needs answers,

he cannot get them.

He has a FWW that has been the perfect wife. When

he wants to talk about the past and he sees that

it shreds her up, the look saying have I not

done enough penance. So to make their last years

better the BH just keeps it inside.

The King David cite is curious, since remorse in his case was completely ineffectual and meaningless.

King David did not even acknowledge what he had done until it was pointed out to him by Nathan. By that time, Uriah was already dead. Can't undo that. Perhaps it was meant to be ironic that Solomon was Bathsheba's son. Solomon was not his favored heir for the thrown. Absolom was, and he was not Bathsheba's.

Anyway, sexual pleasure cannot be undone. Whatever one feels later about the cause. An honest WS needs to tell his or her story accurately. Too much focus on what the WS feels today overlooks the genuine work that needs to be done. People that have sinned should be unafraid to allocute to everything.

Striver:

David's remorse was not ineffectual and meaningless as proven by his prayer in Psalm 51 even if it was prayed after Nathan's comments.

Also, it is true that sexual pleasure cannot be undone but it is also true that one's understanding of sexual pleasure can be completely undone. Remorse changes the personality and life experience of the wayward so deeply they see the sex with their AP as evil, filthy and impure.

I think you have to take into account the theme of the entire Old Testament and be mindful of the time in which this story was written. David’s remorse is limited to sinning against God. David doesn’t really give a shit about the peasants he hurt as he sees them as beneath him. He sees God as above him and the one who gave him everything.

"Against you, you alone have I sinned;

I have done what is evil in your eyes"

Uriah who? Oh fuck that dude.

[This message edited by KingRat at 6:59 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]

Nightmare wrote "I doubt that my pain changes her memories of OM. I wish it would, but I tend to doubt that is true for any WS. In truth we'll never know - this is a subject that can be lied about with impunity."

I don't begrudge any BS for feeling that way. Yet for me it is unacceptable to say that all WS would lie, even after deep reflection and remorse. If it is true that we cannot trust any WS after the affair then I believe we cannot trust anyone, period. Show me someone who has never concealed the truth at some point. Someone who has never failed to do the right thing. Then I can trust only their word, and no other.

People fail morally all the time through action and inaction. Yes, infidelity is a particularly horrible failure. But it does not make one perpetually a liar or failure forever. If it does, in my mind, than so do other breaches of morality. And thus, we all would be bereft of honor forever.

I don't mean that all WS comments about the A sex eventually become truthful. I am certain that is not the case. But some WS tell the truth. And I believe we have some in this very thread that have and do. I admire the self work some here have done and believe that a lot of the BS and those never to experience infidelity would greatly benefit from the type of self examination that some WS dedicate themselves to post A.

I just wish that more WS could find their way that place. :(

it is true that sexual pleasure cannot be undone but it is also true that one's understanding of sexual pleasure can be completely undone. Remorse changes the personality and life experience of the wayward so deeply they see the sex with their AP as evil, filthy and impure.

Without question.

Yet for me it is unacceptable to say that all WS would lie, even after deep reflection and remorse.

I don't think that. In fact, I talk to some of the WS's on this thread and about this issue privately, I have little/no doubt they are telling the truth about the A sex not being "best ever", or even "good" in some cases. The problem is this, when there's only one acceptable answer (It's better with you, he/she wasn't that good, etc) then all people, no matter the truth or not, are called into question. Because the "other answer" is simply not acceptable, there's little/no reason to even ask the question (although, of course, I did, like many on here). Let me put it this way, is there any WS we've ever seen here who said the sex was "best ever" with the AP? Or even just "better than my H/W"? I think that kind of proves the point, because, frankly, I don't believe it. There are too many people here, too many experiences. Someone has to have a less than "wonderful" H/W and have managed to hook up with a wanna be porn star AP. In fact, I don't think it's NEARLY as uncommon as it appears to be here. I hear, in lots of cases, men attributing "best ever" sex to an AP. Now, people say it's bravado and internal justification, OK, that's probably true in some cases. But affairs have a lot going for them sexually (particularly for men), adventure, danger, excitement and very often nothing "off limits". Couple that with an AP who's attentive/good in bed, well.. I really struggle to believe that my cheating friends seem to often have "rock star/awesome" sex and very few/no WS's here do.

Are all AP's great in bed? No, I'd bet my life on that one. Are some? Yes, I'd bet my life on that one too. Are all H/W's great in bed? No, they aren't. If you couple all those things together, there is some group, of some unknown size, who has their "best ever" sex in the midst of an affair. And when you read about affairs in more anonymous forums, both men and women often report the sex was off the walls amazing.

So, long way to say, when there's only one answer that's socially acceptable but two possible outcomes, no matter what you hear from the WS, it really doesn't matter. The liars ruin it for those telling the truth (which, I concede, could be a large group/majority).

Interesting that the lesson from this thread has been lost.

The OP took the dreaded hard line. He told his wife they would D after the kids were out of high school. He did a hard 180.

He destroyed any positive thoughts of the A. He help create the remorse in his wife.

The affair sex no longer matters as the best sex she us having is the sex she is having now.

People here hate the hard line but it works. Stand up for yourself, stand up for yourself.

You only recover from strength.

I wonder how much of the "off the scales" sexual experience can be attributed not to physical attractiveness, nor to sexual prowess or technique, nor even to novelty, but to simple, everyday, not very glamorous or exotic- adrenaline.

A spike of plain, simple adrenaline can make everything more vivid and seem larger than life: including a very average sexual experience with a very average looking and behaving partner.

RIO- adrenaline may be the secret ingredient in the turn on of public sex for you. :)

There is a saying: all eroticism is transgressive. I get it- to a point. The whole naughty naughty tingly feeling thing. But, on the other hand, real guilt is a sure fire boner killer.

So I began to think that perhaps the whole transgressive thing? It's not so much about sin, or doing something wrong, it's not about doing a thing that's just as likely to produce guilt, as it is about taking a risk- which is the very genesis of an adrenaline rush.

I started thinking about adrenaline as the amplifying factor after I'd questioned (LOL, interrogated) Husband extensively about his illicit encounter. What pulled him over that line? and why did he stay over that line, in that situation, "for a while"? Was she prettier than me? Bustier? Less busty? Perkier? Sexier? More attractive in some other way? From the detailed physical description (as God as my witness, at one point I descended into rendering a sketch) (I'm not kidding) an image emerged of a woman who was basically hourglass shaped enough, but slightly on the heavy side, with fairly average boobs, slightly on the larger size. Overall pretty pedestrian. Husband could not point to one attribute or action that drew him over the line and kept him there. And yet he was brave and honest and admitted that the beginning of the encounter, and for the majority of it, was "intensely arousing."

From there I went to "Must have been bored out of his mind with me..." which Husband vehemently denied. I can, honestly, look back at that time as well and I remember an active, hot, happy sex life. I was in great physical shape- I can believe it when Husband insists that this thing didn't happen because she was more physically attractive than me.

It wasn't until I started thinking about it in terms of adrenaline that everything seemed to snap into place, to make sense. Adrenaline amplifies everything.

Adrenaline is also a universal, sexually neutral, commonplace hormone- it's ubiquitous and honestly not very special or selective. We all produce it and feel it in any variety of non-sexual, pedestrian situations. It's, impersonal, and amazingly reproducible and similar in all of us.

It really, really helped me to think of the intensity of the situation as being a product of adrenaline rather than a product of purely sexual arousal or attraction.

To further expound on guilt- it was literally a boner killer in Husband's situation. He was fully engaged (up to his elbows, evidently) and fully aroused when he was offered an "upsell" for an "extra." When this occurred, it nudged him out of the sexual stupor- "Wait, WHAT?" followed closely by a mental stepping back of several feet and an almost out of body experience and view of himself, where he was and what he was doing. He refused the "extra," kept on doing what he was doing, but the spell had been broken, the magic dissipated. It was replaced quickly by a feeling that he was doing something very, very wrong- which did not enhance his enjoyment, nor bring further arousal. In fact, it had the exact opposite effect. He brought the situation to a close very shortly thereafter, out of a sense of having made a huge mistake, and was hit immediately with anxiety, followed by guilt, and more guilt, with more anxiety.

It was the exact opposite of arousal; in this case, and I believe in many or in most cases (except, I would guess, in some persons with masochistic tendencies or full blown fetishes) the erotic nature of transgression has to do with the risk of breaking the rules rather than the enjoyment of the illicit purely for the sake of its illicit nature.

It's adrenaline, I'd bet the farm on it.

And that really, really helps me to understand, and to take the whole of it less personally.

rambler

I agree the hard line worked for me and knocked my wife on her mental and emotional ass. I also agree that the best sex my wife ever had is the sex she had after her affair with me because she was grateful I would have her and she did everything she could to prove that she loved and wanted me and help me heal sexually. ( I was seriously sexually wounded from my wife's affair and I was giving her the hard 180 so we did not have sex for eighteen months post Dday. Even at eighteen months I was still having mind movies, intrusive thoughts and images, nightmares of her and AP have sex, horrible thoughts of sexual comparisons and problems getting and keeping an erection and orgasming ). Talking with her and a psychologist for eighteen more months helped me heal sexually but the process created many opportunities for great intimacy and amazing sex for both of us.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 10:57 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]

Can I ask one more question that remains unanswered in my case. My WW now SS says she was not “in love” with her married AP, yet every note, letter, call ( I overheard), etc ended with either “Love”, or I love you. The letters I found she wrote to him spoke of their sexual passion and plans for the future and what she wanted in their relationship. It lasted 3 1/2 years. Is it possible it was not “love” as she says today, but Limerence? I struggle to get past those assertations she expressed in their A, especially when her AP rarely responded with any written or verbals “I love you’”.