SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I’m sorry man. I really am. Sometimes all a person can do is offer condolences.

Doesn’t seem like she is doing anything but wallowing in self pity and leaving you to deal with the hell you are in.

A personality that does wrong but gets defensive when it is in the open is a hard person to be around. But a person who is defensive when caught in the perverse behavior of your wife, is a rare breed indeed.

If she is acting the way you say, nothing is going to change for as long as you agree to keep living like this. If that’s where you are, then that’s where you are.

Thumos,

Your posting of 10:47 PM, September 23rd (Wednesday), 2020 on this thread should be required reading.

Well done....

Achilles, what incentive does your wife have to change? What consequences has she faced? You’re waiting for her to “hit bottom;” what does that look like exactly?

Is there a way out of this? I am not even sure what that means. It would be easy to cut bait and run. That's not exactly true with kids at home and what not. So I stay for now and wait for progress.

How long will you wait? How about you make a decision now and come up with a deadline so that years don't pass with you staying exactly where you are today?

Have you even tried standing up for yourself and telling your WW the things you tell us about how much you disagree with what she is doing? Or does that lead to an argument in which she refuses to see things from your perspective?

I guess you never want to believe your wife could sink so low to put herself at someone else's whim. To serve as their pleasure giver, no matter what she thought she was getting out of it. That hurts.

I'm not a trained therapist, but I'm fairly well-studied and my WH is also a CSA survivor, so I'm not sure your WW's therapist is spending enough time with that. It's a weird sort of dynamic, but people tend to recreate their trauma. It's what they've lived. But in their recreation, the CSA survivor takes control. Note that in your WW's case, she was the perpetrator, performing acts on the AP but not allowing him to perform them back.

I'm not saying that she had a good enough excuse to cheat, but what I am saying is that her story fits a well-documented profile, making it more believable rather than less. And clearly, it had nothing whatsoever to do with YOU.

Chamomile,

Very interesting. She has talked a lot about control. Being in control of how the encounters with AP went, trying to control things she couldn't control and not controlling things she could. She has been working with her IC on this. I have to admit I don't totally understand it but what you said makes sense of what she said. I don't think she understands it like you put forth, maybe senses it in a general sense. Something, the recreating the trauma, for her to work on with IC.

I agree it doesn't justify having an affair. I get I was not the cause of the affair.

Just to fill in some blanks. She is finally seriously looking for a new job. Thank God, the stress is killing me. IC is going well. I don't know if this is the correct way to judge that but she is very emotional following her sessions. She knows I am gone if I don't feel she has adequately "fixed" herself. She even has expressed that I am just staying around to make sure she has "fixed" herself before I leave. I don't know, maybe. I would like her to be safe for me or whoever may follow me, as she is forever the mother of my children.

My youngest is in his senior year of High School. So he graduates next June. That should be plenty of time to judge her progress in dealing with her issues.

I have been advised to step back and stop worrying about her and what she is doing and focus on me. I am going to give that a try, wish me luck.

Thanks for the help, wish I had used more of it sooner, but better late than never.

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 12:21 AM, September 26th (Saturday)]

Achilles-

My stbxw was a sexual abuse survivor. And I gave her so many chances because of that.

Our "marriage" counselor gave her so many excuses because of that.

My best friends gave her a chance because of that, my family, everybody.

I felt like I had to.

Just to let her do it to me all over again, with 5 more men innumerable times (at least, I'll never know everything and don't even want to anymore).

Where I'm going with is this-

Because they were abused does not make it okay for them to abuse you.

It's not ok. And cheating IS abuse. As you process your feelings you will realize that.

Please don't go down the road I went down with an unrepentant cheater.

Look at their ACTIONS, not their WORDS. Do not make excuses for them, they will have plenty of help on that front. This whole world loves helping cheaters make excuses.

Don't invite even more abuse and pain.

This shit has affected me worse than I could have ever imagined. I can't see myself with another woman, even casually, for at least 5 years. I've already thrown away 13. That's almost 2 decades, or half of my life, thrown in a trashcan.

I see so much of the old me in you right now. I hope you listen, just a little, or a lot.

She even has expressed that I am just staying around to make sure she has "fixed" herself before I leave. I don't know, maybe. I would like her to be safe for me or whoever may follow me, as she is forever the mother of my children.

Are you saying that she is not really buying into the process? Does she feel good about the work she is doing, or is it too painful (thus would most likely stop going if she could)?

My timeline is fuzzy because it was not at all linear and was 8 to 10 years ago, but in the early days of maybe R, my H was going through the motions, jumping through hoops. He gave off this antagonistic vibe of resentment toward me, like I was calling all the shots and torturing him. I was very unhappy with the situation, but I was also very depressed about it. His resentment confused me more than anything. I couldn't understand why working on our M was causing a backlash if saving it was what he wanted? And he wouldn't admit to feeling this way.

Then there was a final explosion between us and I fully let go of the M. (The first time I threatened D and actually planned it out, and he went all caged-animal rage on me, but he agreed to IC and was going. But then I got the resentment days from him: he was jumping through my hoops but fighting it every step of the way. Then a second blow up, and we officially separated.)

When I let go of the M for real, I wouldn't engage with him anymore. I kept saying, "There's nothing to talk about. Please go away. Focus on the kids." I found a mediator and we set up separate appointments with her. We told our family and friends, went out alone, stopped telling each other anything about our private lives, and separated our money. Over the course of these many months, I noticed changes in my H. He spent more time with the kids, did more around the house, continued with IC religiously, and was reading books his IC recommended like The Four Pillars of Self-Esteem and No More Mr. Nice Guy, none of which he wanted to do when I asked. He didn't push on my boundaries, beg or play the victim, mope around the house, or drink too much. He was exercising and losing weight. I think he was dating a little. The actual D process lasted for about a year, and when the mediator said she had our final paperwork for the judge, I kind of looked at my H and realized, "When did the resentment lift? When had he started changing?"

We had the documents and were talking about bringing them over to the courthouse when I decided to ask him what was going on. He said, "I'm working on me. I need to be a better partner for whoever I'm with. I have been a selfish asshole for a lot of years, and I cannot be that guy anymore if I want to have a happy life. I'm not doing this for you. I already lost that. I'm doing it for me, for the kids, for my future." A couple days later I asked if he wanted to hold off on the last court filing, stay separated and just co-parent. I said, "We can still do what we want, like we've been doing, but maybe you'd rather live here with the kids? Things seem to be going very well between us as co-parents." He agreed and said he'd like to be with the kids every day.

That's how we ended up separated for about four years before we decided (me, I decided. But he was open to it) to give our relationship a new start. And a new marriage was born from the rubble of the old--maybe born more from like a vacant lot. The rubble had been moved out of the way a couple years earlier, but we were nothing. We had to start over again.

I just wanted you to see, Achilles, that the "I'm doing this because you are making me" IC and marital rehab doesn't work for most of us. It's not real change. I felt it, as you seem to be feeling it. I felt the resentment, like I had a gun to my H's head as he spit and swore at me. "Fine! I'll do it! But it won't be good enough for you because nothing ever is!" I ask my H now, "What the hell was wrong with you?!" He says he was scared--really, really scared. He finds painful memories and emotions terrifying. Working on himself was the great unknown, and he wanted nothing to do with that. He likes comfort and avoidance. (Don't all cheaters? Isn't that why they cheated in the first place?)

I hope your WW doesn't need to lose it all before she starts changing for herself, not for you. This process has to be because she wants to face her demons, not because you are being a meanie. When that click in her mind happens, REAL growth and positivity can emerge. From any of us. The process is always the same, but it's hard. But avoidants--well, IC is their kryptonite. They don't want to look. It really seems your WW is caught in this place. I hope it gets better soon.

Achilles, I have no advice. Just wanted to say that I relate to the place you two are at. I remember it well. Many couples would not endure what my H and I went through. It was a long and drawn out process, and we had to live with total uncertainty. But getting cozy with uncertainty freed us from the confines of needing a solution. It allowed a solution to emerge. Maybe that's what's happening with you two? That can't be all bad.

You seem sad, but that's ok. You also seem much stronger than you have in the past. I am very impressed that your WW is actively looking for a new job. This is great news showing you standing up for your needs and her responding. All good news. Tolerating discomfort as you navigate difficult emotions while finding your boundaries and standing up for yourself is the name of the game, isn't it? Isn't that what we're all trying to do here? Good luck to you on your continued journey.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:39 AM, September 26th (Saturday)]

She has talked a lot about control. Being in control of how the encounters with AP went, trying to control things she couldn't control and not controlling things she could. She has been working with her IC on this. I have to admit I don't totally understand it but what you said makes sense of what she said. I don't think she understands it like you put forth, maybe senses it in a general sense. Something, the recreating the trauma, for her to work on with IC.

I found a ton of useful articles by using keywords, "recreating trauma, behavioral reenactment". While I do agree with stepping back and letting her work it out, I also think that it's important for you to understand what she's working on in therapy. Otherwise, how can you ever tell if she's remediated the flaws which allowed her to cheat? If R still has any chance, I would think you'd need to at least have some method of measuring success.

Just skimmed your thread. Looked primarily at your entries. My heart goes out to you. I am a BS and it is truly a shitty state to have been placed in. My ex-wife had two affairs that I know of during a 10-year marriage. I was talked into staying after the first affair by the MC. The second affair was with the husband of a couple we were extremely close to. So, she cheated on me and her close girlfriend in one fell swoop. I am always amazed at how BS still love their WS even after horrible affairs. I guess I am different. I despise my ex-wife even 35 years after the divorce. But that's me. From the outside looking in, I admire your fortitude, but I get the feeling you have constructed a prison of immobility. Definitely get your shit together. I see you have had a back fusion in the past. But try and get in as good physical shape given your past disability. It is good for you and your wife to see that you truly have options and that you don't have to stay. A nearly five-year affair is horrendous. That is an extreme betrayal. I commend you for wanting to work through it. You are a better man than me. But, your children are nearly grown. Do what is best for YOU. You owe her nothing. If she doesn't straighten up and fly right real soon, you know what you have to do. BTW, did she ever take that polygraph test? You may wonder if this was not her first affair. Good luck to you, you are not too old to start over. Be careful as to the next woman you choose if it gets to that point. Find a widow. Sounds stupid, but I took that advice and found someone great.

IMS,

I hear what you are saying. I do feel like she should get a little bit of a break for what she went through so she got a second chance instead of D. It has it's limits though, this was the worst thing I have been through and I have been through a lot.

CT,

I will have to research it. I have an incredible need to understand why so even if we D I need to know.

OIN,

On some things she seems really ready to work. The IC seems to be going well. The job search she has totally taken on and is giving me constant updates. Other things, I still feel like I am pushing.

I guess I am a little sad. Sad that we lost the innocence of our love and will never get it back no matter what happens.

src,

Thanks for the kind words. I would just say there is no better man. We all just do the best we can.

Question for everyone, What is your opinion of doing a phone scan? I feel like there is much I don't know that might be reveled.

AHG,

A phone scan is like a polygraph, in that the threat of one can cause the guilty party to vomit some more information.

You can gauge the reaction of the WS if you ask for the phone and tell them what you want it for. Those who are committed to fix the M, or who have nothing left to hide, will not bat an eye, and pass the phone to the BS immediately. If the WS hesitates, and 'needs time to prepare the phone' (i.e. do a factory reset) will be a huge red flag.

If you need it for your own peace of mind, go for it, but don't pin your hopes on getting a lot of info. You could be lucky and get all that you are looking for, but oftentimes, you will not get as much as you think you will.

Achilles, are you prepared to enact some consequences if she refuses or if you find more? Because if you're not ready to make this a big deal for her, maybe you're not ready to do it. If she refuses, what good is it going to do if all that does is make you feel worse about your decision to stay?

Rocket,

I am not sure how much I expect can be recovered. I also don't expect any big revelation prior, so hopefully I won't be disappointed. I guess not being very tech savvy, I expect more than is practical.

nekonamida,

I have thought about this alot. I have something very specific I am looking for. I think a last chance for her to clear everything up just prior to doing it will show me some of what I want to know. I don't really expect to find out anything major, but want to know a couple of things that may be revealed. Minor things learned, my opinion not hers, I can accept. Something major, probably not. A refusal would be a deal breaker for me as that would indicate something to hide. I have already brought this up and she agreed to it. She then kind of backtracked a little, concerned with pictures he may have sent. I am really not interested in that unless it is so over the top or perverted and or illegal. I think I have prepared myself for whatever may be disclosed.

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 5:44 PM, October 5th (Monday)]

If you don’t expect her to tell you the truth or willingly offer whatever it is you’re looking for on your phone, then forget about reconciliation and start planning for a future without her.

It’s been a year and half since DDay1 and your wife has been on SI, so she should’ve offered up a full scan of all her devices by now.

It's not that I don't expect her to tell me the truth, I am looking for subtilties that are important to me. She has already agreed to it, with a little hesitation

Brother;

Control we strive for control, we need to take charge of a situation or incident to gain control, sort the shit out and then resole the situation.

She can not accept what she has done. She tries to help me but doesn't try to help herself

There is no control, hence both seem to be in a holding pattern, waiting for the anger to subside so to the control the outcome. To do this she has to accept what she has done. Then accept the help she needs hence, the control is out of her hands. She has to accept that she caused the past to move forward.

The A happened, she has to accept that.

The duration happened she has to accept that. I feel you have accepted. But are still searching for a valid why?

Why did it happen?

Why did she sell her body for ego kibbles?

Why didn't she seek advice from her life partner? You may need the answers to the why's, but there can be no control over the why's. Wife is human, you are human. She has to accept that she is broken and lost control. She has to also accept that the future is also out of her control.

Continue to communicate, seek IC tell her what you need and why. Get her to accept that she cannot change the past and has minimum control in the future.But can actively help in building a new marriage. But also accept it will never be like the past. The past marriage good but in that goodness, she found cause to cheat.

Brother please take care of yourself, realise what you can and cannot control, breath, but help yourself by helping her. Not telling her but guide her 'I need..' 'Not please get me a beer'. I think I am rambling but do you kind of understand?

One day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 11:53 PM, October 21st (Wednesday)]

Buffer,

Control seems to be an illusion. As much as I want, I have no control over anything, even myself it seems.

My father in law passed away recently and I have been trying to support my wife and her family. I love her family and they have accepted me as a son and brother. I am having difficulty supporting my wife and dealing with the affair. Why can't I separate the two? Why can't I do what is right and put my issues aside and contrate on supporting them? I feel like a monster

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 1:00 PM, November 4th (Wednesday)]

I am having difficulty supporting my wife and dealing with the affair. Why can't I separate the two? Why can't I do what is right and put my issues aside and contrate on supporting them?

You just recently had a D-Day 2 which sets the healing all the way back to day 1. I personally did not get over the False R. My STBX also wasn't remorseful or doing any of the things I asked for like coming home early at night and IC. Sometimes these things are just dealbreakers. Don't blame yourself. Your WS put you in this position. Is she doing anything that is helping R?

I felt done long before I decided to S and I couldn't find empathy for my STBX if I tried at that point. He killed the M.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 1:32 PM, November 4th (Wednesday)]