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Unfortunately, too much onus is put on women to prevent themselves from getting attacked.

Exactly the same onus that's put on men to prevent themselves from being attacked. Do you want equality or do you want special status? You have equality, what you're advocating for is special status. I have absolutely no illusions that a bunch of men or women are going to jump to my defense if I'm in a physical altercation. In fact, I'd bet money if 10 people were there, what I'd get is 10 Youtube videos and not a single person jumping in to help. But that's equality for ya, it's you know, equal.

If I want to secure my person, I have to take steps to secure my person, I can't rely on someone else to do it for me. And you can certainly be upset that this is the state of society, but it's in no way different for men/women in this regard. In fact, I think that a woman has a much better chance of having a guy jump in on her behalf if she's getting beat to a pulp for her purse than I do a woman jumping to my defense if the same is happening for my briefcase. So we're not even to "equality" yet, I think women still have it better in this regard. You'll have equality when you're punched in the face, laying on the street and people are stepping over your near lifeless body (men and women) as if you don't exist. I don't think that would happen to a woman, but, let me assure you, it happens to men, I've seen it.

And regardless of what you feel others should do (and I do agree with you in theory), the reality is that they won't. If you want personal security and safety YOU are the only one who can secure that for yourself. No man anywhere is going to "hand it to you", we don't have it to give! The best I can do is suggest the course of action I've given here; arm yourself (if it's legal), stay out of bad neighborhoods, don't attract undo attention or move to Jackson, WY. Same options that are available to me.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 12:33 PM, April 5th (Friday)]

BTW, I'm taking one of my boys to the barber today. I assume there will be lots of men there. What should I wear?

This.

I want to NOT attract attention from men.

I have been hit on wearing jeans, t-shirts, skirts, leggings, turtle necks, sweatpants.

What should I be wearing?

I like that we are having these discussions. I like to think we are approaching a renaissance of sorts where we embrace new ideas about humanity and the planet.

I would like a world where sexuality isn't demeaning or abusive or a using sort of thing as in a power play. The robots will happen. Maybe it's a good thing so people don't go without, experience variety, New sensations, etc. Maybe we get people here crying my spouse only wants to go to the robot club or they took the robot on vacation instead of me!

I would rather my WS did what he did to a robot rather than a real person. He says she wanted to be dominated but in my mind that's using a hurt person. That is probably one of the things that hurt me the most about his A.

People enslaved, hooked on drugs and forced, children abused, people desperate to sell themselves to be able to eat and pay rent as some have to do. The robots cant get here fast enough to end these things. There will be mermaids, feathered and antlered creations, the variety will be up to the imagination. All while wearing a virtual reality helmet as you fly through the sky with your winged fantasy object.

There will be humans. Like us. Having kids. Connecting. The old fashioned way if they aren't too rewired to not be able to function naturally without the added wherewithal.

It's like phones and technology. It's great but don't lose your ability to appreciate face to face interactions. It's basic to our well-being.

One person I am familiar with got their ass beat by catcalling at a bunch of male construction workers...

Ok so there's a sexual preference difference there but if you don't like being cat called at, don't damn well CaT call anyone else.

But what it seems a lot of women are taking about here, full blown, one step from rape sexual harassment, well stepping into the middle of that means getting physical with a really, really bad dude. You feel like this guy is gonna rape you? Well, he's likely to shoot me. And it's usually not one guy, it's a group of guys, likely all armed, and just looking for an excuse to shoot. 

I'm sorry, but this is one of THE most insane posts that I've read. You sound like someone that has never set foot in the "hood," trying to sell a movie script about it.

The posts from women I'm reading aren't talking about roving groups of "superpredators" carrying guns. We're talking about the creepy guy behind the deli counter, the construction workers on the street, the well-dressed customer in a suit that keeps inviting you out for dinner and won't politely take no for an answer, the group of drunk frat guy/finance bros at a bar being obnoxious and making kissy faces at you and "accidentally" grazing your butt when you walk by.

So, for example, it would have been really cool if one of my male coworkers had stepped in to say, "buddy, she doesn't want to go out to dinner with you," and then taken over the transaction so I wouldn't be forced to smile awkwardly and come up with polite excuses as to why I was busy, sorry there's a not dsting customers policy, yada yada, while I was trapped on the other side of the desk.

Because that's what your asking if we're talking about "bad dudes" doing this. Yeah, if it's your run of the mill, had to much to drink rich asshole who's being pushy, yes, I'd step in and I have, "dude, she's not interested, let's go find someone better looking" works really well for diffusing that situation and I've done that.

What we're trying to say is that the "bad dudes" were referring to aren't always the "thug" looking guys with their pants hanging low. If anything, it's just as often the guy dressed in the business suit that "accidentally" falls into you on public transportation and acts like whoops! He has to grope your breasts in order to stand up.

Okay, well let's take that one...

the guy dressed in the business suit that "accidentally" falls into you on public transportation and acts like whoops! He has to grope your breasts in order to stand up

I don't ride public transportation but I bet this happens.

That guy doing it is inarguably a douchebag. And I hope he gets lifelong everpresent diarrhea.

But what's gonna have a bigger probability of getting him to stop?

Me going 'hey man, don't you do that shit!'

Or the person the hypothetical groper targets tazing the shit out of him?

Now I get that you're not really looking for a solution as much as venting and wishing it never happened at all or that you wouldn't have to fear it.

I'm sorry, but this is one of THE most insane posts that I've read. You sound like someone that has never set foot in the "hood," trying to sell a movie script about it.

I have the scars to prove my time in the "hood". I've been jumped a few times, one time going on on a backboard. I'm happy you can walk safely through the hood, I cannot.

We're talking about the creepy guy behind the deli counter, the construction workers on the street, the well-dressed customer in a suit that keeps inviting you out for dinner and won't politely take no for an answer, the group of drunk frat guy/finance bros at a bar being obnoxious and making kissy faces at you and "accidentally" grazing your butt when you walk by.

And this is what we're lumping into the sexual assault category to get to "I'm assaulted every time I go to the grocery store" I assume? Except of the ass grabbing, not a single one of these rises above the level of "being an asshole".

So, for example, it would have been really cool if one of my male coworkers had stepped in to say, "buddy, she doesn't want to go out to dinner with you," and then taken over the transaction so I wouldn't be forced to smile awkwardly and come up with polite excuses as to why I was busy, sorry there's a not dsting customers policy, yada yada, while I was trapped on the other side of the desk.

Yeah, sure it would be cool. I might actually do something like that. But there's no onus of action here, it's not that you're being discriminated against or singled out. I'd NEVER step in to assist a man in those situations, creepy ex-GF bothering you Jeff? Well, handle your shit and blow her off hard. She'll get the point. And if it rises above that, call the cops. But being an asshole isn't criminal where inciting violence is. And me stepping in runs the very real chance of inciting violence where you blowing him off hard almost certainly will not. Why do I have the onus to act on your behalf if you will not, even if you acting is much more likely to result in a peaceful end to the solution.

And yes, while I'm being direct to make a point, if I was at the store waiting for my cold cuts and the guy behind the counter said something off color that was obviously inappropriate, I'd say something. But just because he's an asshole, and I'd let him know that. But I've been in a lot of deli lines and never seen this, where I hear in this thread it's an everyday occurrence for women. If I saw something like that, I'd do something yes, but I generally have pretty peaceful interactions in the deli line, no chance to be the "good guy" and explain to the deli manager why "nice ass" isn't an appropriate response to "I'd like a pound of American please".

What we're trying to say is that the "bad dudes" were referring to aren't always the "thug" looking guys with their pants hanging low. If anything, it's just as often the guy dressed in the business suit that "accidentally" falls into you on public transportation and acts like whoops! He has to grope your breasts in order to stand up.

I'd say something about this too. But I've never seen this happen either. What I HAVE seen is roving bands of thugs on the subway/trains, and let me tell you, I was as worried as you are. I actually remember once I was on a metro in Atlanta and there was a few "super-predators" in the car with us, harassing everyone, men, women, dogs.. Anyone they could intimidate they did. The guy next to me was also on his way home from work, and when we caught each other's eye he looked down into his bag and I could see the butt of his gun. I nodded my head and knew what he was telling me, if this gets bad, be ready and react (I was not carrying, but, if I was, I would have let him know). But nothing went beyond just "high grade asshole" stuff, and eventually the "super predators" decided they'd had enough and got off the train.

But this is a great example, they were intimidating the entire train car, acting the fool, cursing, and basically just terrorizing everyone. Once I knew this guy had a gun, sure, I could have gotten up and said, "sit the fuck down and shut up", which, of course, would have almost certainly caused a physical altercation and wound up with one/more people shot when the guy across from me started shooting. But would that have been the right move? Should I have "stepped up" and stopped them from terrorizing (verbally, not physically) the kids, mothers, fathers, grandmothers and everyone else? You might say yes, however CC law in my state says "no". It has to reach the level of physical danger and you're not allowed to intentionally escalate the conflict. And that's what it seems like people here are saying, it's my duty, as a man, to intentionally escalate the conflict when I see a women getting the once over from an asshole in a suit. Well, it's not, and, let me tell you, if I decide I'm going to do it anyway and it's as prevalent as I'm hearing here, it won't be long before I'm on the news as the perp or victim in an assault (best case) or gunshot case (worst case).

But what's gonna have a bigger probability of getting him to stop?

Me going 'hey man, don't you do that shit!'

Or the person the hypothetical groper targets tazing the shit out of him?

Both.

The thing about being a minority is that my voice as a woman, even when accompanied by a tazer or pepper spray, is not going to be listened to the same as the voice of a man.

I guess I am curious as to why the idea of telling a jerk (not one who presents as a thug or somebody dangerous) to knock it off is something that you oppose SO hard. You would really see a woman being groped on public transportation and just sit there as if nothing happened?

Yeah, no not both. If I said "knock that shit off!" He's just gonna say "it was an accident!" And then do it again later to someone else when I ain't there.

Now if he gets tazed, there's a good chance the pain is gonna reinforce that it wasn't a good idea.

I mean, let's break to down to the types of dudes that'll grope a lady on the subway/bus:

a. Entitled assholes who think they're the shit and act like they're giving a blessing to whoever they touch. Me bringing it up is just gonna start a fight.

b. Dudes so down on themselves they think they'll never have a chance to be with a woman and get a volunteer to be touched. Me bringing it up will shame them, but they are already in such a low place it'll roll right off. They're just gonna do it again later when I ain't there.

c. Opportunistic bastards. They'll just do it again later.

D. Drunks. Likely fight.

E. Crazy mofos. Who knows what could happen?

Tell me. In which of those scenarios is me saying or doing something gonna help? Unless I personally know the dude AND they respect me, everything I could say is water on an anthill. Might stop the occurence that one time but that's it.

wow, NTV, you're being too nice. How about: I saw what you did and I'm calling the police. You being a witness, along with the woman experiencing it, oughta really make a difference.

The thing about being a minority is that my voice as a woman, even when accompanied by a tazer or pepper spray, is not going to be listened to the same as the voice of a man.

You obviously have never been hit with a taser or pepper spray. I have, both, and let me tell you, I can do my best James Earl Jones voice and it's going to have 1/1000th the impact of 100K volts or puking through your nose while struggling to get enough air to keep from passing out. You'll only do either of those things once, trust me on that. And if I had to do either again, give me the taser, every time, pepper spray is one step away from being dead; the only thing that you can do effectively after being pepper sprayed is pray for death. Perhaps some good that can come of this thread, pepper spray is no joke and will stop all but the most determined attacker. If you're concerned for your physical safety on a daily basis as some posters here are, get some and spray the F((K out of anyone who physically assaults you. They will NEVER do that again.

I guess I am curious as to why the idea of telling a jerk (not one who presents as a thug or somebody dangerous) to knock it off is something that you oppose SO hard. You would really see a woman being groped on public transportation and just sit there as if nothing happened?

I gave my personal example, there wasn't any groping going on there, but, if there was, I'm going to honestly say, it would have had to reach a pretty bad level before I think either I or the guy who was armed would have said "stop". Now, if that was just a businessman on his way home from work and out for grope, yeah, I'd say something in most cases. It's still escalating it quickly though, for all I know, he's carrying too and my "knock it off" could quickly turn into a crime scene. But, to be clear, if it was clearly escalating on that train, I had NO DOUBT that the guy next to me would have pulled his weapon and we would have taken care of it. And for me personally, that would include "serious groping" as a time when I would have had to step into that situation and try to end it. But it would have to be serious in that situation because, as I said before, me escalating could have very quickly gone from a harrowing subway ride that I'm sure most people who were on the car forgot long ago (and I would have too if not for the guy with the gun) to something much, much worse.

It's situational. I'm sorry to say, but it is. What's the greater good and less likely to result in something awful? Sometimes, like it or not, it's letting the girl take the groping rather than turning the train into a warzone. Yeah, that's a tough call, but taking something to potentially deadly force (which nearly every male/male interaction like this is) has a high bar for action. Imagine that train ride, the roving band of hoodlums were feeling girls up, my seat mate stands up, tells them to sit down and knock it off, they come at him, he pulls his gun and misses, hitting someone else on the train. Well, sad to say, but he's in the wrong there, he made the situation worse, not better.

"behavior characterized by the making of unwelcome and inappropriate sexual remarks or physical advances in a workplace or other professional or social situation." Dictionary

"Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature and the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors. Sexual harassment includes a range of actions from mild transgressions to sexual abuse or assault." Wikipedia

I saw a video once showing a woman being harrassed in a bar. No matter how much she told the guys to leave her alone, they wouldn't. Then, another guy walked over it her and said something like, "There you are." The other guys backed off. "Oh, sorry, bro. Didn't realize she was with you." It can help.

There are campaigns now letting women know where there are safe places and safe people. People saying women can walk up to them, sit down with them, to get away from someone. Be that safe guy.

Ah, call the police and find out she doesn't wanna press charges? Yeah good times there.

If SHE calls the police I'd probably stick around to provide a statement.

I cannot believe this bullshit^^^

so.. as long as she's not tooo felt up and as long as there's a possibility the guy might never have a chance with a gal and calling him up might "shame him" then you're not going to do it.

I know the real reason you won't, although you continue to try to convince us the cost to ratio fallacy.

"Ah, call the police and find out she doesn't wanna press charges? Yeah good times there."

what in the hell would you have to lose?

[This message edited by sewardak at 1:50 PM, April 5th (Friday)]

I don't think I'm allowed to use a tazer up here. Pepper spray maybe. More likely not to get in trouble using it on a bear than a man though.

I have to prove that I was indeed assaulted in order not to be charged for protecting myself. Thus, if someone is going to attack me I gotta let them have the first hit and hope I can stay upright then spray them or whatever the case.

Totally fucked up!

I should be allowed to break the hand of the man that gropes me without having to face a judge! But being groped isn't as bad as breaking his hand so guess where I end up...

I loathe posting in these threads because I think they exist in contrast to fostering a healthy, supportive atmosphere where, despite our differences in sex, upbringing, and affair role, we all lend an ear to each other in what is possibly our most trying of times, but...

The argument that men should just step in to help women is "problematic". First, if there is to be equality, and men are to treat women the same way as they would men, nobody's really going to be stepping in to help. If one of my friends gets into a weird situation with a third party, I'll silently stand by and observe how he handles it. Like RIO said, he can handle his own problems as an adult in the world. I suppose I'd step in if it got physical and he needed my direct help, but if it's verbal and situational, I'm not going to assume that he needs me to fight all his battles. I'm not inside his head and I'm not going to start making assumptions for him. Equal treatment is equal treatment, we don't get to pick and choose the things that are appealing and toss out the rest.

Second, the concept of "men should step in to police other men *for women's sakes*" exists in gross opposition to the belief, which I share, that women are free agents in the world who can handle their own business and don't need white knights to rush in and save them. There's no rule book to follow where "men should step in to save me in these situations, but in these other situations he's white knighting or 'mansplaining' or crossing some kind of subjective, invisible line that he should just inherently be aware of and fuck right off". Not to mention, the personality type of a man who would "stand up for" a female friend is, like it or not, the same type who is likely to be territorial and generally aggressive and other such things which might not be as palatable in a friendship. If I saw a guy immediately jump in to "fight for his female friend's honor", I'd either think A) "this guy is a fucking hothead" or B) "man, this dude *really* wants to get with this girl, huh?" Not saying those are his only two options, but let's be real here, if we surveyed 100 people, those would be the top two Family Feud answers bar none.

Third, I find the lack of responsibility in a lot of arguments here to be concerning in general. We can't walk through life hoping that the world changes. We either adapt to the dangers the world presents, or we get eaten for lunch. Every BS here should be actively internalizing that life lesson. If we go back out into the dating world and just act the same as we did before getting cheated on, ignoring the same red flags and falling head over heels for the same kinds of wrong people, what the hell should we expect when the next POS cheats on us? When my niece enters dating age, I will lovingly give her a primer on what hazards exist for her and how to spot and avoid them. I'm not going to tell her "just do what you want, it's *society* who should change" because I care about her well being and I want her to thrive in the world. My ex-wife, for all her faults which I have fervently cataloged across various threads, knew this lesson very well. She was worried about running in the early AM, even in our quiet little neighborhood, so I bought her pepper spray for her keychain and she carried it on her every morning she went out.

Jesus, did I just say something nice about my ex? What the hell is going on here...

*sigh*

Yup, ya'll are right.

There is *just nothing* other men can do to hold each other accountable.

Guess I need to just walk around armed. I guess that's a good philosophy- if ladies shoot all the assholes out there, there will be none left.

I still love that this original topic was about clothing. I asked what I am supposed to wear if my goal is specifically NOT to get attention from men.

My goals are NOT to impress men when I get dressed. Apparently men seem to think that ladies get dressed with them in mind...so what should I wear?

to be clear, my point is anyone (male or female) saying something when any PERSON is being harrassed like that. I don't think males need to be the knights in shining armor. I think everyone does for each other.

we CAN and SHOULD expect change - that's how women got to vote, slaves were freed, blacks got equal rights, etc - and other issues to make it a better environment for ALL people.

People were passionate about those issues. So, why not?

There is literally nothing a woman can wear in order to avoid male attention. Even a white t-shirt turned brown from years of not washing and covered in gravy stains and a skirt made out of strips of insulation won't do it.