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My W doesn't think we need to work towards a better marriage. She was talking to me about a friend of our son's whose parents are divorcing. She was like "aren't you so glad that'll never be us?" I was like "ummm... yeah...of course...". Then earlier today she was talking about distant future plans, like after the kids move out. Selling our house and buying a small condo for just the 2 of us. I'm telling you, she thinks all is well. All is well for her, so all must be well.

Why are you perpetuating the lie that everything is all hunkey dory? What if, instead of lying about your feelings, you had said to her, "why would you think that would never be us? Why would I want to continue living with you once the kids are grown?"

Do you think she would file for divorce immediately? Have another affair? Act out in other ways? Would she be gobsmacked by the truth?

Next time she brings up the future, what if you said you envisioned having passionate sex with a partner that desires you, and doesn't just lay their like a cadaver? Someone that actually WANTS to touch your body to bring you pleasure and enjoys you doing the same to them?

The thought that keeps me up at night. I realize that my current plan (lack thereof) of staying until the kids are grown up is not a good one. But for the life of me, I cannot justify ruining my kid's childhood just because Dad isn't getting the kind of sex he wants from Mom. I think about it everyday. To be with somebody who actually wants to be with me, sexually. To have sex with a woman, and not have her recoil in disgust by attempting any sort of touching that isn't P in V. To have somebody that I can share my interests with, instead of having them mocked. To not always have to be alone at social outings, while my other friends always bring their wives/girlfriends (my wife doesn't like my friends).

But is it really just about sex though? It sounds like she's not very nice to you. She puts you down, doesn't want to spend time or make an effort with you and your friends, doesn't want to show you affection, doesn't want to work on being a safe and remorseful partner.

I am not sure what the solution is. Option 1 is to leave, and have my kids hate me for the rest of my life. Option 2 is to adopt a sort of "Happy Wife, Happy Life" type of situation. There unfortunately is no getting her to change. She is convinced she is RIGHT, and all other points of view are irrelevant.

Option 3? Be radically honest about how you're feeling and how you view your relationship. You don't have to expect any changes from her, but you don't have to grin and bear her putting you down.

And/or option 4? Ethical non-monogamy/polyamory. Tell her this situation/compromise obviously isn't making either of you happy, so you'd like to continue living as co-parents/roommates, but you want to stop having sex with her and seek relationships elsewhere. As such, she is welcome to do the same. There's no lying, no hiding, no denying, no gaslighting. You're upfront with your casual partner(s) about your situation. How do you think your WW would react to such a suggestion? It would absolve her from having sex with you, which, by your description, sounds like she doesn't really enjoy and only does out of obligation.

But for the life of me, I cannot justify ruining my kid's childhood just because Dad isn't getting the kind of sex he wants from Mom.

If it were that simple, sure. It isn't, though. It's not just sex. It's feeling desired by your wife. It's feeling loved. It's not feeling rejected. It's feeling like your needs matter. It's a lot of things. It affects you more deeply than "just" sex. It's a really painful wound and it can wreck a relationship all by itself without infidelity in the mix.

Dude

You.are not happy because.you dont speak truth.

Just speak the truth with her

Share your true feelings

Why you lied when she said that you two will never get divorced.

She doesn't understand the magnitude of her crime.

She thinks that you forgave her and thats it.

And you are scared to initiate any conversations.

Fenderguy

Why do you think your happiness isn’t as important as your. wife’s? You deserve to be happy and fulfilled just as much as anyone else on this planet. Please take your power back and a frank discussion with your wife. Don’t let your unhappiness fester such that it eventually starts to consume you.

And BraveSirRobin, being married to my MIL is the thing of my nightmares!

I remember being told once years ago: "Women tend to become their mothers." Best advice I ever got. My MIL was awesome. I won the MIL lottery. And my current wife is indeed gradually becoming her version of my MIL. I've given this advice to my son as well.

FG, have you considered this option.

Go to your wife, sit her down, look her in the eyes, and in a soft and nonconfrontational way tell her that both of you are in denial about the truth of your relationship and both of you are just going through the motions and living an unauthentic life.

Meantime precious time is ticking away (might go get an hour glass and flip it over to graphically show the sand dwindling down as it pours down from the upper chamber into the lower).

That this "arrangement" between the two of you obviously isn't working. Your relationship isn't just about sex, however sex is a HUGE sign of how intimate a couple are with one another.

Another way of looking at the word intimate is (In-to-me or In-to-your-mate). It's very evident that she's not into you. Duty sex and getting it over with as quick as possible with countless you can't do this or can't touch that stop signs flat out shows that there's NO intimacy in your relationship and life is WAY TOO DAMN SHORT to pretend something of this magnitude and is one of THE primary ways two people express their love for one another (or at least it should be).

Not only does she not want to be with you she laughs at the idea that another woman finds you attractive?

So look her in the eyes and tell her this isn't working for either of you. So moving forward you will NO longer initiate being with her. It's off the table. No more duty sex. You'll just relieve yourself moving forward and FG don't say this just to say this or to make an empty threat. It isn't a threat...it's about STOPPING something that just makes you frustrated and depressed and angry and resentful and just feeds into the LIE that BOTH of you (read that again BOTH of you) are living.

Also tell her this isn't being done to force her hand or guilt her into changing her ways. Who wants the hug from someone who has to be told to go hug you or the thank you from someone who had to be told to thank you......NOBODY.

Either she gets this or she doesn't and right now she doesn't get this. Your wife isn't being honest with you because you my friend aren't being honest with yourself (nor her).

Moving forward intimacy is off the table for good. You'll just go about living a life as roommates and putting up the facade of a happy couple/family. That said wife, just as the sand in the hour glass will eventually run dry so will this marriage.

"Aren't you glad that isn't us" she says to you recently?

"Wife are you that much in denial about our relationship and it's ability to stand the test of time"?

You don't want to be with me intimately.

You've cheated on me.

You don't like my friends.

You think so little of me that you laugh at the idea of someone being attracted to me.

And this arrangement works for you?

I'm pulling my head out of the sand and moving forward it's about living a true and authentic life.

WITH OR WITHOUT YOU!!!!

In life you get out of it what you put into it.

The things that are important to you you're willing to do what's necessary to help it grow. To put forth an effort not because you're being forced to but because it's important to you.

Close by saying I don't know how much longer this relationship will sustain itself. If she can't (or hasn't seen) that your relationship is on LIFE SUPPORT than this is YOUR WAKE UP CALL.

Either she will get this or she won't.

She has (and has had) free volition to do whatever she wants.

Guess what........SO DO YOU FG!!!!

Don't be angry while presenting all of this to her.

Tell her you're speaking from the heart.

Either she loves you enough to put in the work and change many of her ways or she doesn't. The CHOICE is hers only with regards to HER actions.

FG take being intimate with her off the freakin table.

Every single damn time you do this with her (being with intimately) you are just feeding this LIE that BOTH of you are living.

Either she puts the work in or she doesn't.

She's been given a wake up call and so have you.

It either changes or it doesn't.

If it does great.

If it doesn't than you move to plan B.

You document her actions over say 6 months to a yr after her wake up call (and no more sex) and during this time you're laying out your options. Open relationship as others have pointed out or you have a plan in place to put the wheels in motion to divorce her.

If it comes to this (divorce) she shouldn't be surprised because you laid your cards on the table on this specific date. In fact write out a document outlining this conversation, date it, sign it (if she want to sign it as well is up to her). If down the line things don't work out pull out the document to show her/remind her of this conversation and the attempt to save your relationship and to get to a place where BOTH OF YOU ARE HAPPY.

Right now it's quite obvious that neither of you are happy.

If she says otherwise she's freakin lying to herself.

That said it doesn't matter if she's in denial nor wants to wake up. This is about YOU and you taking the bull by the horn to make steps and choices to get to a place where you can find some happiness.

I'll say it again FG LIFE IS TOO DAMN SHORT!!!

When we get older and look back on life the regrets we have (for the most part) aren't the things we did but rather the things we did NOT do.

The main reason why we don't do these things is due to one thing and one thing only and that's FEAR!!!

It's ok to be afraid but damn it do NOT let it control you and keep you from doing the things (making choices) that we deep down KNOW we want to make.

Just like the line in Shawshank Redemption.

"Either get busy living or get busy dying.....DAMN STRAIGHT".

[This message edited by Booyah at 7:40 AM, June 1st (Saturday)]

Agree with the others that you’re not stuck with option 1 and 2. Bonnie’s option 3 and 4 are pretty viable and good especially if with option 3 she would do the work to help you get what you want and to validate your wishes and feelings. Option 4 is playing with fire because it would require open and effective communication to work as well as the acceptance that it gives her permission to wander... reality is you probably don’t even get there. It could wake her up. Or should could be on tinder five minutes later. More likely a wake up.

It seems like you had a not so great MC. And without her doing IC she’s going to remain stuck. Not a dealbreaker I would think but certainly holding you back. A good MC will help you communicate better and figure out what you want as together a couple.

The good news is that you both know what you want. She seems happy with status quo, you are not. The question is whether you can get her to hear you and validate your feelings and commit to meaningful change. This is also about her...your desire for her to have a fulfilling sex life with you! Not just getting on all 4s and doing her marital duty.

I get why you are staying for the kids. That was my 0lan at first. It was minimum 5 year plan, until I felt comfortable sending my youngest to school. (I homeschool.) How long would it be for you?

I like ibonnnie's idea of seeing if she would agree to living together as coparents and roommates until you feel comfortable enough with the kids to leave. That is, of course, if you are dead set on not leaving now.

BTW, your kids won't hate you for leaving. They will have to go through a transition. It may cause some problems at first. But, if you do things right, you will all be ok in the end.

My mom cheated. My dad left. My parents divorced when I was 4. We kids lived with my mom. I always loved my dad. I hated my mom even before I knew the reason they split.

My counselor told me that this "allowing and perpetuating falsehoods about being fine with how things are" is what makes codependents just as dysfunctional as selfish partners. She said, "Codependents are liars. They do not speak their truth and instead allow the selfish partner to believe that their behavior is not selfish." Her criticism of my codependent behavior, that I saw as above reproach because I was "sucking it up for the benefit of the kids," really stuck with me. She told me that kids don't want a parent that lies and pretends to the other parent.

Live truthfully.

Speak honestly.

It does not mean your WW will divorce you tomorrow (although she can decide she wants a D on any day) or that you have to be cruel while being honest. It just means that you will force out statements that line up with your thoughts and feelings inside. Many BS struggle with this part of recovery and R and then turn around and post how their WS seems fine but they are not. It is because they are struggling to live honestly and own their displeasures and negative feelings, but people cannot change what they do not realize is wrong.

Oddly enough, the minute that I started speaking truthfully, my relationship started getting better and my H started changing. Turns out that I was my own biggest problem because avoiding conflicts and negative conversations actually steals the joy that is possible in reciprocal relationships.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:42 AM, June 1st (Saturday)]

My counselor told me that it takes 2 functioning adults to make a marriage work, and right now your wife isn’t functioning. (Neither is mine!) If she won’t go to counseling, then there really is no marriage to save. Right now, MC would be a waste of time and money. She needs help first.

To have sex with a woman, and not have her recoil in disgust by attempting any sort of touching that isn't P in V.

This sounds to me as if she has some issues where she associates sexual/sensual touch with something unwanted. Maybe there are sexual abuse issues in her past. I went through a stage with my wife where when I was done I felt I needed to leave a 20 on the nightstand, and she does have sexual abuse in her past. You won’t know these things until she gets help.

Good luck, my friend!

FG I wasted years being unhappy and ignoring my needs. Guess what, husband had a 5 yr affair.

Don’t waste time like I did. There isn’t anything to gain.

[This message edited by Tallgirl at 6:59 PM, June 2nd (Sunday)]

It could be a hormonal thing. She does not take ADs. But she would first have to admit that there's something wrong with what she's doing in order for her to get her levels checked, etc. I really just believe that she doesn't view sex, or physical intimacy, as that important. She seems to view sex in general as a crass topic, never to be discussed in any forum.

From what you've said, R seems to have gone fairly well and you guys have a good life. I don't think I'd give that up without a fight.

Women can begin perimenopause as early as their 30's, and if you type into your browser, "female sexual dysfunction", I think you'll see that there's a wide range of things which might have gone physically wrong. You say she doesn't like to talk about sex. Tough. Would she rather talk to a qualified sex therapist or to your attorney?.. because if you're honest with her, that's where this thing is eventually headed.

A combined treatment plan of medical intervention and counseling could possibly turn it all around, but it starts with forthright discussion. Have you told her everything you've told us? If not, why not? I'm not saying you should begin with ultimatums or anything quite so drastic, but she needs to know this is serious. Conflict isn't always a bad thing. When it's constructive, it's an opportunity to problem-solve.

Right now, she probably figures you're getting your nut twice a week, so what's the problem? And she's undoubtedly NOT going to enjoy hearing that the problem is her. But if you change nothing, nothing changes. It might be that it's physically impossible for her to have an orgasmic sex life. Female sexual dysfunction can be kind of like the erectile dysfunction we see in men, sans viagra. But if you find out together exactly what's happening, you're then in a position to decide together what to do about it. I expect that if you found out the problem was physiological rather than her slowly becoming her mother's mini-me, it would feel like a different issue altogether.

I don’t believe there was any sexual abuse in her past. I’ve known her 14 years and there’s been not one shred of evidence to that effect. She only had 1 sexual partner prior to me, her HS/college boyfriend. I know him well enough to know that he’s a good dude who wouldn’t have done anything to her resembling sexual abuse.

Even calm, sensitive attempts to address her low level of sexuality are always met with extreme defense. She find the topic unacceptable to discuss. I’ve told her I feel like a rapist when we have sex, which she says is ridiculous. I really think she thinks she’s this porn star of a wife, letting her husband hit it twice a week. I could literally have more adventurous, mutually pleasurable intercourse with a blowup doll. At least the doll doesn’t dislike sex!

Also, back to the other topic of being hit on... it happened again last night. It was me and 4 of my male friends, and 1 of them had his fiancé at this bar. Just hanging out and shooting the shit, nothing too wild. We were discussing some marital issues, and I actually feel like some our issues are pretty tame compared to what these guys were saying.

ANYWAY... it happened again. Different girl, had no idea who this was. She hit me up for a cigarette (disclaimer: I only smoke when I drink). I gave her one, lit it for her, then went back to my conversation. 10 minutes later she finds her way back to me and asks for another one. I figure whatever, that’s 2 less cigarettes I’ll smoke. She starts in with “thanks, it’s just been a rough day”. So I kind of asked what was so bad, even though I didn’t care, just politely making conversation. She unloads in me about her ex drama, blah blah blah. I was talking and being nice and funny, but she kept inching closer as I inched away. Then the touching (from her) starts. We find out we originally grew up 20 miles from each other. She says she’s 26... blah blah blah. Now I’m thinking how can I get away from this girl? My friends female fiancé comes up to me and says “FG, close your tab, we’re leaving!” The perfect out, thank you. As I bid the young woman farewell, she comes in for a hug... I give her a half added hug, which leads to her trying to kiss me. I just kinda laugh, push her away and say goodbye.

My friends fiancé proceeds to rip me a new one, even though I literally did nothing wrong. She said “that girl was practically getting pregnant just by looking at you!” Again, I’m not overly attractive, and am not smooth or anything. I try telling her this to my friend, she says she has noticed other girls doing this with me a lot. She says that by being friendly and confident, but showing them literally no interest, I am in fact making them want me more. She said it makes you absolutely irresistible to these young girls. Makes sense. My friends know a little about my wife and I’s issues. They say it makes sense, you aren’t getting the affection and attention you crave at home, and that need is subconsciously coming out in different ways. So now 4 of my closest friends think I’m at risk for cheating on my wife, which I am not.

Maybe I need to go to IC myself. I’m just starting to feel a little bit out of control.

IC could be very helpful.

After reading that, my thought was that maybe you are inadvertently sending out signals. There are a lot of young women who are attracted to older, married men. They either want a sugar daddy or they want what your W has.

I figure whatever, that’s 2 less cigarettes I’ll smoke. She starts in with “thanks, it’s just been a rough day”. So I kind of asked what was so bad, even though I didn’t care, just politely making conversation. She unloads in me about her ex drama, blah blah blah. I was talking and being nice and funny, but she kept inching closer as I inched away. Then the touching (from her) starts. We find out we originally grew up 20 miles from each other. She says she’s 26... blah blah blah. Now I’m thinking how can I get away from this girl? My friends female fiancé comes up to me and says “FG, close your tab, we’re leaving!” The perfect out, thank you. As I bid the young woman farewell, she comes in for a hug... I give her a half added hug, which leads to her trying to kiss me. I just kinda laugh, push her away and say goodbye.

My friends fiancé proceeds to rip me a new one, even though I literally did nothing wrong.

Stop being so nice, especially to strange young women in bars.

Maybe that's just your default setting, but what stopped if your interaction with this 26yo had gone like this:

She starts in with “thanks, it’s just been a rough day”. So I said, "sorry to hear that," and since I didn't care, I turned away, because I have zero reason to be making polite conversation with younger pushy buzzed girls in bars without my wife present. She unloads in me about her ex drama, blah blah blah. I said, "that sucks, I've been married X-amount of years so I don't have an ex-drama in my life." Then I turned back to my friends and ignored her. She kept inching closer as I inched away. I said, "would you mind giving me some space? I'm claustrophobic." Then the touching (from her) starts. So I said, "please don't touch me. My wife wouldn't appreciate it." She asks me where I grew up, I vaguely said, "oh, around," and turned back to my drink/friends. She says she’s 26... I say, "oh wow, so you're like a baby still, huh?" and turn back to my drink/my friends. Thankfully I shut down all of her attempts to hit on me, so now I don't have to wonder how can I get away from this girl.

With all due respect, this sounds reminiscent of "nice guy"/KISA thinking. Instead of sending out a loud and clear NOT INTERESTED signal to shut down this girl hitting on you, you kept being nice and funny and friendly, which isn't fair to her or to you, or even to your WW.

Because you didn't shut this girl down from the get go, she kept chatting. Because you didn't shut this girl down at that point, she got closer. Because you didn't shut this girl down at that point, she started touching you.

You had so many chances to make it clear that you WERE NOT INTERESTED AND YOU ARE MARRIED, but it doesn't sound like you did that once.

FG, I know you say you know yourself and you wouldn't cheat, so I respect that. I find it very, very annoying when people say that with the right circumstances anyone could be a cheater, because I agree and believe I would never cheat.

But... I think that the fact that four of your closest friends IRL are concerned that you might cheat is worrisome.

As for your WW getting defensive, tell her it's not a conversation, and to stop. You're telling her how you feel, and she needs to listen and think, not listen so she can formulate and argument or stonewall.

"I'm not happy with our sex life, and I don't see us staying married once the kids are out of the house if things don't improve. We can work on this together, or you can try to invalidate my feelings, but that won't make them go away."

[This message edited by ibonnie at 8:12 PM, June 2nd (Sunday)]

Wow. First off good that you’re talking about this. But back to the original question for this scenario, will you tell/have you told your wife about this scenario? And will she belittle this one too?

I agree that you may inadvertently be giving off signals. No doubt when I was in a similar situation I was flirting and being friendly. I mean who doesn’t like being validated by someone younger and attractive. But that’s how the slippery slope starts for many.

I do think there are ways to be nice to this woman who may have had a bad day while also clearly saying “not interested” and only you know if you were ever at risk. But maybe IC helps you unpack this. But with your W being dismissive and defensive and resistant to counseling that’s the real hurdle to progress.

Not easy man. But most importantly you’ve still got it. The game... and the integrity.

But... I think that the fact that four of your closest friends IRL are concerned that you might cheat is worrisome.

This. What you are hearing is that your behavior is at best, something that is easy to misinterpret in barroom culture, and at worst, something that you are subconsciously encouraging. The desire for validation, in the face of total disregard from your wife, would be understandable even if she hadn't poured salt in the wound by cheating. But understandable is not the same as justifiable.

Take it from a wayward: you are indeed on the gradual path of lying to yourself. Saying that your friends don't understand that you're just being friendly. Assuring them that you have this mild flirting under control, even though it's happening repeatedly. Explaining to us that you only engage in certain risky behaviors at the bar, like smoking when you're also drinking. That's compartmentalization, my friend: in these situations, "it doesn't really count." What if the next little step in these friendly conversations is how your wife doesn't like to come to the bar? Then how she doesn't like sex?

It happens like that. Exactly like that. The things I did that I would have sworn I would never do, that no one who knew me thought I would ever do... until I did. Until those same friends started giving me uncomfortable looks and pointed questions. And then maybe you think, I've been meaning to try out that other bar, the one where those friends aren't around. Or it's not a night we're meeting, but I'm in the mood for just one drink...

It happens so subtly, one step at a time, and you're already a few small steps in, IMO.

I'm impressed that as the involved parent that you say you are, combined with being an equal partner around the house, and a full time employee, that you have time and energy to go out to the bars.

Maybe it's the number of kids. I have four kids, 1-15. By the time I'm an equal partner with the running of the household and parenting..I'm done in for by 9pm, or I've just gotten started with things like planning vacations, talking over camps the kids with do, etc.

And as for the rest...about not understanding that women are hitting on you. I live in a college town. Bars are mostly for getting drunk and getting laid, no matter what age you are.

Sure, we have a few tapas bars in town, and I've had friends meet eachother there for a drink and tapas in couples (everyone has their SO, not just one person)..so...there, getting drunk and laid is not the prime objective.

I would say in 85% of the cases, it is.

What else do you do? Why not find some other hobbies? Presuming you are going to retire, you'll need to find something to fill your time up with, other than going out to the bars with friends..

I know it must seem like I go to bars all the time, but I really only go out like that maybe once a month, if that. Most of the places we go tend to have a wide range of age, 25-60’s, and beyond. We aren’t hanging out at college bars. I am a devoted family man most of the time. But there’s still this wild streak in me that was present when I was young, and resurfaced since DDAY when I did the 180. I just like to occasionally engage in less than saintly behavior. Wife knows this and accepts it.

If we get a D, it won’t be because of the A. It won’t be because we hate each other and can’t stand one another. It will be because we will have pretty much transitioned into roommates by that time, and once the kids leave there probably won’t be anything left of “us”. I don’t think she gets it at all. She seems to have zero need to intimacy. She’s not really a cuddle on the couch type anymore. She’s not really a hand holder, or into any kind of PDA. She mocks people who are.

I think that this is so incredibly sad. I couldn't imagine being in your shoes. It's not just sex. It's a lack of love and even respect the way she minimizes your experiences of being hit on because if she's not attracted to you, then of course that's a problem with you that everyone else will see. She treats you like you're ugly and no one could ever want or love you. And like you're lucky that she puts up with you and grants you a free pass to her body 2-3x a week. Personally, I'd never be able to stay in a marriage like yours. You deserve so much better.

Just like a few posters have mentioned her taking after her MIL, remember that your kids will be taking cues on how to have a marriage from her. If she still showed PDA, this might not be so bad but since she's completely cut that off too, your kids now see this is as just how things are and will likely go on to be a cold spouse or be with a cold spouse. They will have to deal with frustration and therapy in their future just like you are now because of the example MIL and FIL set for your WW.

I think you've gotten a lot of great advice from everyone about radical honesty and I don't think you're fully understanding what that means. Of course you shouldn't have the same tired argument with her that you have been. But have you sat down and told her that the lack of intimacy (not sex and make this clear) in your marriage is a deal breaker for you? Meaning that you will be making moves to leave the marriage in the future? I'm guessing you haven't because it's tough. It's not fun. It seems to me like you assumed if you started by talking about the issue you could work up the courage to make it clear that there is no future for the two of you if things stay the same and every time she shut you down long before you could get there. So instead of starting with the intimacy issues, you need to jump right to how you no longer see a future without it to have any hope of fixing this.

Fender, really ask yourself, if your WW treated talking about the A the same she talks about the intimacy issues, would you find that acceptable? Sure, she's not openly betraying you but think about it. You feel hurt. You feel rejected. You feel unsure about the future. You have trouble sleeping when it's on your mind. If this continues, it will completely erode your relationship with her and your self esteem. It's putting you into a dark place of depression and breaking you to the point where at times you have questioned your ability to be faithful. And I'd say it's already blurring boundary lines for you given what happened at the bar recently. I don't blame you for what that young woman did but I also think there were several opportunities you could have taken to fully shut her down and that you are somewhat allowing yourself to be vulnerable and send the wrong messages. That's a hell of a lot of negative impact this is having on you. And she won't even acknowledge it! Would it be acceptable to you if she refused to acknowledge the A and refused to talk about it?

Where do you realistically see this going? Because I can't see anything positive coming out of this if everything stays exactly the same as it is today. You may not cheat today but I really question how long you can hold out months, years, down the line when women keep attempting to initiate things with you. At best, you will suffer silently trying to accept the unacceptable for years to come. At worst, you will blow everything up with a RA and who knows what will happen there. Either way, this is a long, slow road to D and you know it. So why not do something, ANYTHING, to change that?

And one more question - why do you believe that your kids will hate you if you D?

[This message edited by nekonamida at 12:40 PM, June 3rd (Monday)]