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I must admit to being at a bit of a loss to understand what is happening here. Regardless of her denials, you have heard her openly admit to having sexual contact, cheating the lie detector and conspiring with her AP. Exactly what is there that is left to address?

At this point she can say anything she wants and you can do whatever you want but how on earth can there be even a single doubt or shred of uncertainty? Why would you even be discussing anything with her? Other than discussions regarding the kids or pertinent issues around the household business the only response should be, "you can discuss that with my lawyer."

It seems like your trying to find some way to save this relationship while she does everything she can to destroy it. What is the point of bailing water in a sinking ship while your wife and AP drill holes in the bottom of it.

Stop doing the pick me dance, its not a good look for anyone, stand up and be the man that shows strength and decisiveness.

[This message edited by leftbroken at 10:33 PM, Wednesday, August 25th]

Whatever your issues with your marriage, that's 50% fault to the both of you. It's for the both of you to fix your marital issues. Her cheating is 100% hers and her POSOM AP's fault. They were the ones enjoying their sexual trysts. They were the ones planning their next adventures. They were the ones talking to each other on how to proceed, on how to stop for the moment while the iron is hot. They'll resume once she gets your trust back again. There's no end to her affair. It's still in progress.

Unknowingly for you, your life is an open-book to all her friends and family. They know you even more than you do. You're the villain in her story. The villain which caused all the issues with your marriage. She's the angel from her stories. The angel who justifies her behavior towards her friends who in return acts like her supporting cast and claps and cheers at every act she does, even if it's having sex with other people.

All the best!

[This message edited by beb252 at 11:21 PM, Wednesday, August 25th]

I am done with her, but I guess I still want the satisfaction of her admitting to me that she is lying. Perhaps that day will never come.

The problem is, as I have stated previously, I am relatively conflict averse and unassertive and she tends to be a steamroller. She will not let it, or me go. I have a feeling that the only way she will cop to it, is if I provide photographic evidence of PiV sex, which of course I do not have.

I do have other evidence. However, some of it was collected via somewhat dubious means. I don't necessarily want to reveal this evidence to her as I worry that it, or my manner of collection, would be held against me in the divorce.

As such, I am left with her doubling down on her bullshit.

The talk with her friends and coworkers has always gotten to me. Right now I feel like I am being made into a dupe and laughing stock between them all. My methods of evidence gathering might be dubious, but at least I know where I stand. Thankfully I have never really met them. Hopefully never will. I despise these people. Overhearing the things she says is like listening to a completely different person. I suppose she really is - true colours.

Question 2 does not meet standards for a poly question.
Define relevant, define deliberate, define withholding. It’s too open a question and there is no way anyone could pass. It’s like asking have you lied knowing that everyone has lied at some time in their liver.
Question 3 is too defined. Why is the alone factor an issue? Would it be any less of an affair if his mom had been in the kitchen? Or if they went at it in an orgy? The question "Have you had sex (as we defined sex previous to this examination) with OM? Would have been enough.
Plus the general methodology is to have 2 questions that are basically the same, only differently worded.
I think there is something fishy about the whole polyfactor…

Not that it matters. It’s not as if she’s innocent until you can convince her you have proof. Its enough that YOU know.

You don't need to divulge how you got your information but you can tell her little things like without outing yourself.

You can tell small things like, I believe you went away for 3 hours during this (day in question when she had sex with AP). Where did you go? Who you're with?

Then about her convos with her friends: You're pretty close to Alice (friend who enables her cheating), right? What do you usually talk with her about? Is she married? Does she cheat on her husband?

Then her family: Did you talk to (family member she confessed with)? What did you talk about?

Little things that will catch her off guard. This will cause her to question herself if she's really gotten hold of you or not. She's playing mind games. You can play yours too.

I second Bigger's comments above. We both have experience in law enforcement and those poly questions you stated are not appropriate for a polygraph examination.

Polygraph examinations are very carefully constructed with a series of control questions to establish baseline. They are a series of relevant and irrelevant questions. When relevant questions are asked they are structured in a manner where there is no mental or semantic wiggle room out of the question.

The examples you provided were way to ambiguous.

Now, this all Academic, as Bigger also said, what does it matter? You already have an abundance of evidence your WW has betrayed you in every meaningful way.

I've personally had mixed feelings about polygraph examinations post affairs. I believe if your marriage has degraded to wiring your spouse up to a multi-lead polygraph and interrogating them....

The idealistic beautiful love story is OVER.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 5:10 PM, Thursday, August 26th]

You don't have to give her - or anyone else - a reason for leaving or proof that she cheated. You can just divorce her because you want to. Get that ball rolling and don't play her game anymore. She's already shown you that she's not a good partner. No need to engage further.

Let go of needing the full truth. You're not going to get it. Start making your peace with that now.

[This message edited by 13YearsR at 5:11 PM, Thursday, August 26th]

Just file. Get a divorce. Do it right now! Every day that you dither your health is suffering. Many posters say they have PTSD because of this. Protect your health.

Completely agree you have nothing here to work with. She is the complete opposite of a remorseful cheater. And honestly it sounds to me like she lacks character completely.

I know it’s awfully hard and painful but you’ll be doing yourself a favor by removing this person from your life if you’re able to bring yourself to do it.

Only think I could see doing, and most would say it’s a waste of time, and it probably is, is that I would message every friend you caught her trying to help her cover up the affair. Wouldn’t let her know you were doing it, and I’d let them know that I absolutely know they have helped her cover up a physical affair and they should be ashamed of themselves for helping her cheat.

I would also loop in their spouses if they have one.

I know it’s unconventional, but I see absolutely no other path with your W then to separate, file and divorce. And who knows. One of them may have a conscience or a convincing and outrage spouse and contact you telling you what you want to know.

At the very least it could end the friendship between them and the WW if they betray her. And wouldn’t that be satisfying?

Good luck. Keep posting. There’s lots of experience here.

I already told her to cancel MC, but she is insisting I attend at least the first session. Deposit is paid already, I guess. I think it is perfectly useless.

I can't emphasize strongly enough for you to cancel this appointment. At the bare minimum, DO NOT GO.

There currently is no marriage to counsel. And I 100% GUAR-AN-TEE that your WS will use this session to her advantage. You will never, and I mean NEVER win while you play her game. The way to win is to not play.

You have evidence. You don't need to tell her any more than "I know you are lying. Until you start being honest with me, we have nothing to discuss about moving forward in our marriage." And you leave it at that. She will follow you from room to room, but just repeat the above. Go out for awhile if you need to, but don't engage her unless she wants to come clean.

And even with that, you have mountains to overcome. Others have said that your wife is not remorseful. I will go beyond that--she is cold and calculating beyond words. Deliberately set up, and cheat a polygraph. Then brag about it. Fucking disgusting. Conflict avoidant or not, you do NOT need to engage with this person. If you need to engage with anyone, it should be your IC and your lawyer.

And if I didn't stress this enough---DO NOT GO TO THAT MC APPOINTMENT!!!

I already told her to cancel MC, but she is insisting I attend at least the first session. Deposit is paid already, I guess. I think it is perfectly useless.

"I'll meet you there."

Then don't show.

This woman needs to learn that she is not in control and you need to flex some nuts and prove to yourself that you are not a pushover.

But hey, I don’t have any actual proof so it allows her to deny, deny, deny.

This is an odd game people play. You know she is cheating. She definitely knows she is cheating. But for some reason both parties agree to play this game where you have to prove she is cheating.

Prove it to who? Her?

Prove it to yourself? But you know. You know it like you know the snow in that picture is cold.

Here's the deal, you just need to know. Period. End of story. And you do know.

If the game is to be played, at least flip the rules. Make it so unless she can prove she hasn't cheated, she has. Put the burden on her. This puts you in control, not her.

Reddy,

I do have other evidence. However, some of it was collected via somewhat dubious means. I don't necessarily want to reveal this evidence to her as I worry that it, or my manner of collection, would be held against me in the divorce.

One thing about evidence is, never disclose what it is, how you found it and where you stored them. keep her guessing. Just hint that you know more than she thinks works far far better. This way she will be running around frustrated to know what it is and stay away from you. In the meantime you get ready for your next step.

Question 2 does not meet standards for a poly question.

Define relevant, define deliberate, define withholding. It’s too open a question and there is no way anyone could pass. It’s like asking have you lied knowing that everyone has lied at some time in their liver.

Question 3 is too defined. Why is the alone factor an issue? Would it be any less of an affair if his mom had been in the kitchen? Or if they went at it in an orgy? The question "Have you had sex (as we defined sex previous to this examination) with OM? Would have been enough.

Plus the general methodology is to have 2 questions that are basically the same, only differently worded.

I think there is something fishy about the whole polyfactor…

Agreed. These questions are suspect. Makes me wonder.

She seems to think she knows exaclty how MC is going to work for her. I think she has another thing coming. I already told her to cancel MC, but she is insisting I attend at least the first session. Deposit is paid already, I guess. I think it is perfectly useless

Don’t be so sure about how MC would go. Remember how carefully she prepared the ground for the polygraph. Was the MC recommended by someone in her group of cheater supporters? If so she may have reason to believe the odds will be two to one in her favor.

Regardless, many MC’s are at best clueless when it comes to infidelity. They treat it as something both partners are responsible for and often advocate rugsweeping or blame shift to the betrayed spouse.

I think the poly is irrelevant at this point, it’s just a distraction. You have enough evidence and you have already decided on D.

I am done with her

Your next step is to figure out what is in your best interest when proceeding with D.

Will going to the MC help you with your D? No
Will arguing on whether she’s a cheater help? No
Will it matter what her friends and coworker think? No
Will it help preparing your D with a lawyer? Yes
Will it help detaching from your STBXWW? Yes
Seek support from friends and family? Yes.

Don’t waste your time and energy on things that don’t help you reach your goal.

Your WW had no problems cheating the poly, telling you one pretty story and a completely different one to her friends. Once you D, I’m sure she’ll invent some other story, and she might even believe herself. You might even become a rich prince of Nigeria, illegitimate son of mother Theresa.

It doesn’t matter. She gets to keep her fantasies, and you get to make a new life in reality.

You know the truth. You can control you. No contact is your only good path.

... I guess I still want the satisfaction of her admitting to me that she is lying.

It doesn't matter. She KNOWS that she's lying. It's not like making her admit it will somehow make it real. It's already REAL. She knows what she's done and she knows that she's lying about it. And even if she chooses to continue telling that lie, she will always know the truth. Treating her like a person with a normal psychology who feels guilt and remorse will get you nowhere because that isn't where she's at right now. She KNOWS the truth and yet she'll look you right in the eye and gaslight you, up to and including getting a fake polygraph result, and then brag to her friends about how clever she is. But you don't need a smoking gun here. Just file for divorce, get the best deal you can, and move on to a BETTER LIFE. Stop trying to convince her of what she already knows. If she wants to go to counseling, tell her to take her boyfriend. You're done.

That change in attitude will either snap her out of her fantasy or it won't. Either way though, what do you lose? You already know she's just going for complacency so she can start back up again.

Reddy, I'm so sorry this is happening to you. Don't let her make you think you are crazy, you have so much proof. I'm new here, so I don't have much advice to give except listen to the people here. They give you good advice and support. Take care of yourself and do what you can to protect yourself.

So the nonstop texting has continued. I have explained to her that despite whatever she might have felt before that I really did love her. Perhaps I haven't expressed that to her satisfaction, and yet i have always been there for her. She has finally acknowledged my feelings.

She still will not own her actions or take responsibility for them or own up to what she has done. She continues to double down on everything all the while giving me the tears. Fuck I feel so manipulated right now. And goddamn it if I haven't tried to grey rock her, but I just am not very good at it.

I had my first meeting with the lawyer today. He advises a separation agreement over filing for divorce as it tends to be less conflictual (depending on the sort of lawyer she chooses) and less costly. The financial incentive is definatly there as I am relatively low income by comparison. I am in the process of gathering the documentation he needs in order to start work on my file.

As to the polygraph, she is now offering to get me the video of the test. I don't know what that will do for her, as I already know that she did not tell the examiner of the Lorazepam she took. Do any of you polygraph experts know whether this drug could have an effect on the test. The other thing I learned is that the examiner didn't take a baseline reading before the second test, he used the baseline that he got during the first test. I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject to know whether this is important.

The questions were drafted by me, in consultation with the examiner.

She has finally cut contact with AP. Although from her messages to him, she has said that we need to cut contact "for a while". LOL. I know what that means. I have her stating that she would like to start up again, and he would too. So, I read that as "let the smoke clear" and we can continue as before.

As far as MC goes. I am on the fence. It is at the same place that my therapist works out of and I have accessed their services before on another occasion that we went through MC. The therapist I am seeing is very validating and has told me to trust my gut on this one and that my STBXW needs to own her decisions and take responsibility for them. The other therapist we saw as a couple ten years or so ago was really good. She blames me for not communicating there, yet I went for all ten sessions, she came for about four and quit. She quit because she approached it as though the problem was me, and that we were there to fix me and not us. When the therapist pushed back on her, she quit. Not that I got off easy either.

Goddamn I wish this were over. The therapist told me it was like PTSD, and I am starting to believe her. I just keep on thinking it over and over and over. If it weren't for my kids I'd drive into a fucking telephone pole.

I really need to work on standing up for myself. I just don't find her story the least bit believable. I wish I could post her text transcript and let others tell me whether there could be any shred of truth in it. FML.