SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

ShouldHaveStayedAsleep,

Today is confrontation day. I'm checking periodically to see your update. Believe it or not, many of us get truly emotionally invested with the people dealing with affairs, and to be honest, your story is so awful it almost makes me cry. It would be bad enough if she was just your wife; to know that she's your best friend, and that you felt you had a very strong marriage the entire time, just makes this level of betrayal unbearable.

Please update us as soon as you can, even if it's just one or two sentences. This site gets a bit quieter on weekends, but some of us will still be here to offer emotional support, if nothing else. And don't discount the value a bit of support can have, even if it's from some internet stranger.

I can't imagine a scenario that is consistent with the evidence that wouldn't utterly devastate me. I sincerely hope that you come back with news that proves I have a very limited imagination.

It's not much, but know that I'll be thinking of you and hoping for the best.

And don't discount the value a bit of support can have, even if it's from some internet stranger.

My man, at this moment this forum is my only form of support. Knowing that there's people out there who have gone through something similar, read you, acknowledge you, share their wisdom and good wishes means a fuck ton to me.

I just finished my daily walk, in 5 minutes I'll be home. I'm nervous, but calm. She's visibly altered, saw it in her face when she was going out to drop the kids at grandma's place.

Let's see how this goes. I unlikely to update until Sunday.

If you are religious, send some prayers my way.

This issue re the paternity of the kids is one faced by many male BS. Your situations a bit different in that the paternity fraud has been discovered and has led you to discovery of the infidelity. Usually, it is the reverse with the infidelity leading to the discovery of the paternity fraud. I imagine, as has been mentioned this is becoming more and more prevalent.

I read once where a random sampling in, I believe, Canada, showed approximately 10% of fathers are raising offspring not biologically their own. Seems a bit extreme( if you are in a crowd of 100 men, 10 are so favored?).

This issue never entered my mind until one day, years ago, my then 7 year old daughter was talking about blood types. How she knew anything about them at that age is beyond me, never mind where she would have gotten information that she was AB negative.

As soon as she announced this, I knew she was either making it up or someone told her this. Being O negative, I knew if this was true, I could not be her biological father.

As she grew, it was evident she was bigger, stronger, more athletic than any of her sisters. She looked nothing like them. Her disposition was sweeter. She was more focused and did better in school and athletics.

I decided to never investigate further. It would devastate her.

If your wife did this( hopefully this is a testing error), she has done a truly terrible thing.

One comfort to me ( I divorced) is that in spite of my wife's abuse and treachery, my kids are here, part of my life.

I really hope there was some bizarre error in your case. If not, at least you have a great as t relationship with your children.

Hang in there, post when you can.
Let her talk explain what happened...people hate silence.

Dear ShouldHaveStayedAsleep;

You will be in my prayers. May God show you his love for you and your loved ones.

May the wisdom of Soloman be with you. May God hug and hold you through your pain.

With Love and Tears,

Organic

[This message edited by Organic2003 at 5:26 AM, Saturday, February 5th]

Thoughts are with you at this time.

Just breath state what you know. Keep Mr Angry in check and as I say.

Just take this one day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 1:17 AM, Sunday, February 6th]

My man, at this moment this forum is my only form of support. Knowing that there's people out there who have gone through something similar, read you, acknowledge you, share their wisdom and good wishes means a fuck ton to me.

Any man or woman who has walked this road, that person is my fellow member in the worst club to join on the planet. I have nothing but sympathy for what you are going through and pray that God gives you wisdom and patience to find the right path together. Be kind, because you chose to. What happens next might be awful, we don't know. Give her every chance. Be patient. Don't let the anger consume you. I can tell you this-- I carried hatred around with me for three long years. It is a heavy load to carry. Don't be me.

Good luck, friend, and make good decisions.

Didn't think I would be back here so soon.

Typing this while still fresh so I don't wake up tomorrow with half of it erased from my HDD.

I'm royaly pissed. Things went far worse than I thought it would (for clarity, I'm pissed now, never showed anger while we were talking).

I know I said earlier I had an open mind and was even willing to hear Korean soap opera level stories, but FFS!! I was joking!

Me: Do you love me?
Her: With all my heart.
Me: Why are you still with me?
Her: Because I love you, you are my whole life! I'm devoted 100% to you and our family, there's nowhere else I would rather be.
Me: Silence.
Her: I'm going upstairs or do you want me to stay here with you? It's chilly...
Me: Nah. Go ahead, we can keep talking upstairs, no point in us freezing here.

RED ALERT! Not even going to ask what's going on?

I'm probably going to butch quite a lot, but the general idea should still be clear. I need to have a voice recorder at hand for round 2.

I have a smoke and sip some liquid valor, some 7 minutes later and she's already in bed "asleep".

I started by asking for an open and honest conversation. No lies.

Me: Already asleep? We need to talk and I don't want to have this conversation with the kids around.
Me: Are you having an affair?
Her: No.
Me: Have you had an affair?
Her: No, never.
Me: Then who's the father of the kids?
Her: You are.
Me: Not according to the DNA tests
Her: What DNA?
Me: The one I don't share with the kids. Who's the father?
Her: I did what had to be done for us to have a family. It was painful and cost me a lot of money. You have no idea the hell I went through for this.
Me: What? What did you do? what do you mean?
Her: What had to be done. It was planned this way.
Me: I know you had an affair, it started back in that ugly patch we went through back in early 2013. With both kids not my own, I know it lasted at least 5 years (I was bullshiting here).
Her: I did try to start something with someone back then, but never went through with it. It was wrong and I never did it.
Me: Who's the father of the kids? Is it subordinate or peer?
Her: blank face.
Me: What's the name of peer's wife?
Her: X
Me: Then why are you stalking X? (This was a mere conjecture based on her FB search history, I was right)
Her: Because they are very dangerous people, you don't know how much they have hurt me. I need to keep an eye on them to make sure they are happy and doing ok so they don't ever think to get close to me again.
Me: So the father of the kids is peer?
Her: Yes
Me: So you admit to having an affair with peer? Why didn't you tell me so we could try IVF or a donor?
Her: And go through the hell of IVF?? I did what had to be done to give us a family and he was the one available.

All this conversation and not a single tear, not a single I'm sorry, full poker face.

What the actual fuck.

I then talked about the grief process and the need for me to have a whole picture, a real picture, one which I could believe to go through my healing process. Then I started to bargain with her, begging her to let the truth out, to get it off her chest, to help me understand what happened. First 20 minute break to help her process.

After I returned we spent close to 10 minutes in silence, just staring at each other. In retrospect she was clearly in shock, I didn't recognize it then.

I broke the silence by begging her for the truth, she kept saying "You don't understand how it was, I already told you".

I kept pushing and she started breaking. I asked once again for the truth or I would have to contact OM's wife to find out.

And this is worrisome:

Her: They are awful, bad, dangerous people. You have no idea what I went through to get her off my back, she wants to destroy our family.

I didn't pay enough attention to that statement, instead, I went bananas (inside) with the "destroy our family" part and lost composture. Told her she's the one who destroyed our family when she decided to spread her legs for OM. Shouldn't have said that, not at that point. live and learn.

Then I couldn't help it and went emotional. Told her about my robbed past, present, and future and how I feel; recalled in detail the happiest day of my life (firstborn) and how I now feel like an impostor, yadda, yadda

By then she was crying and telling me non stop that I'm a good man and I'm not an impostor and I'm the only one she wanted then and there, bla bla bla...

She went full meltdown when I said "I must have done something pretty awful in a past life".

She couldn't stop apologizing and claiming she never meant to hurt me, that this is her worst nightmare come true.

Asked her if she brought him to our house, her "no, never" was very emphatic and convincing and I chose to believe it, end of the story, for my own peace of mind. Don't go there.

Asked her if OM knows the kids are his, said he suspected.

Asked her if she wants OM in kids' life, she went bananas, said she hates that guy and he's a really bad person.

Asked her about him being a "good friend" for years, what happened that turned him "bad", She then went on to just insist on him being a POS, who enjoys hurting everyone around him and it took her way too long to realize it.

During most of the talk, she kept insisting on how beautiful and perfect our kids are and how what she did was worth it, blah blah blah. I had to keep reminding her of this not being about the kids.

At some point, I reassured her of my love for "her" kids and my wanting to stay in their lives. I intentionally said it that way, thought it would soften her a little, and encourage her to talk. It just made her cry even more. At the end of our talk, I reassured her of my love for "our" kids and told her no matter what I want them to suffer as least as possible.

There was a mention by her on why I'm insisting on so much details that would be hurtful to me. Had to remind her that's not her choice to make.

A short while I just left the room, not before begging her to think it through and come clean.

I'm sure I'm leaving out a lot of details, the whole talk was 2-3 hours long. there was a lot of back and forth.

Observations.

1) She admitted to "attempting to start something with someone but not going through with it" back during our 2013 rough patch. (likely a lie and that someone is OM).

2) She's convinced of her "did what had to be done for us to have a family" and won't admit to an affair.

3) "What had to be done" was "planned that way" and I was never meant to find out.

4) I suspect their affair ended rather ugly, with OM's wife finding out and *possibly* asking for money in exchange for not exposing her. There might be pictures and videos of them together and OM might have facilitated those to his wife, ergo the "they are awful people", "she wants to destroy our family", "it cost me a lot of money"

I truly expected this to go way different, I mean, I wasn't expecting to get the whole truth in one go, was hoping it would take me a couple of days, a week tops. Now I'm not even sure I'll ever get the whole picture.

My wife is damaged, very damaged, and needs urgent psychological help. I'm getting her an appointment ASAP.

[This message edited by ShouldHaveStayedAsleep at 9:47 AM, Saturday, February 5th]

Oh God.

Well, totally agree get your wife some help, stat. She is a very damaged person.

There you have it, cold and calculated. So sorry man.

Can we conclude: she is an expert liar. She is extremely good at hiding things. She can be incredibly selfish and cruel.

It's probably not cool to say she's nuts, but SHE'S NUTS!

Marriage going forward with someone who could pull this, wow, that's going to be a challenge.

Can you ask someone to come help you? Provide care for your kids, help figure out what to do with your wife? Both your families are troublesome right? Then good friends maybe?

One positive here, you now know a great deal, maybe the worst of it. Pressing her further for details with the peer might be unwise right now, she's on the verge of a meltdown. You can probe for more details later, perhaps with a therapist present.

Courage, you're going to have to be the strong one for what's left of your family. What is going through your wife's head right now? There's no way to make this right, bleak, bleak, bleak outlook for her.

One more thought, over the years I've read some creative rationalizations, give your wife props that's a new one and a good one. She got impregnated TWICE by another man 'for the good of the family'. Holy moly.

[This message edited by SnowToArmPits at 11:53 AM, Saturday, February 5th]

Brother
Sorry but I am slow on the uptake here. Is she inferring that she could only get pregnant by the OM over the five year period.
Then paid money so you wouldn’t find out?
Really?
Well that makes it all better.
Get her help asap, she needs it.
Then help for yourself. Include std checks. The children will always be yours. You raised them.
But was WW having trouble conceiving?
One day at a time.

Oh my God! This is a shock.

OP do you have family or friends that you trust? You need to tell someone so you can get support and help. I am afraid your wife will need some mental help too once the shock wears off. But please understand you need help as well.

As for your wife and her story. There are many things that can be said about her choices and to what extent she has been telling you the 'truth'. There will come a time to hash all this out but for now I advise you to focus your energy on the things you must do to get by the day. Eat, drink, sleep, see a doctor, even leave the house for some days to get space. This is a moment of crises and you need support in real life from family and friends.

Dear ShouldHaveStayedAsleep

That exchange has me squirming in my chair, I have become a crier when I hear the painful stories of betrayal.

The conversation did not seem to help put the puzzle together but just made more pieces. One thing is sure you are a good man and a great father, at least she had that right.

She sure seems to have thought about this possibility coming, you finding the truth of paternity.

I am doubting she did this "for a family", how would she know if you were infertile? Do you even know? I would lean toward she wanted a family with him, and it blew up big on her.

"Compared to other gynecologic procedures, IVF is not very painful" is what I found on a web search.

I asked once again for the truth, or I would have to contact OM's wife to find out.

This may end up being the only way to get the truth. I had to finally contact the AP to get the truth - WW had a whole separate life with him being exclusive SO. AP believed she was divorced and was totally confused after I walked in on them, and the affair was 5.5 years.

4) I suspect their affair ended rather ugly, with OM's wife finding out and *possibly* asking for money in exchange for not exposing her. There might be pictures and videos of them together and OM might have facilitated those to his wife, ergo the "they are awful people", "she wants to destroy our family", "it cost me a lot of money"

This seems highly likely, but I doubt they are awful people.

said she hates that guy and he's a really bad person.

This is exactly what my WW said too, over and over. At first, I liked that statement. Then I realized it is VERY emotional with no reason to hate someone she willingly has sex with. Her rational for hating him was ridiculous so I finally contacted AP who in two hours gave me the real truth of her double life. My WW even included a story of how evil he was, a story of beating people. Turns out he is a "nice guy" who thought he was dating exclusively a woman with a crazy Ex Husband. He believed she traveled for work A LOT.

Brother, I wish I had Soloman's wisdom for you. Many brilliant people on SI will help.

So, for now I will just let you know I wish I was able to just be with you though this pain and confusion.

KNOW you did not deserve this crap and I think your wife fell back in love with you, but you were plan B. Maybe that's why I feel so connected to you.

Much Love

Organic

[This message edited by Organic2003 at 12:44 PM, Saturday, February 5th]

This is a complex situation.

You don’t have to answer this here on this site or publicly but to your knowledge are you infertile? Is there some way this might have been clear back at that time and your wife therefore sought out what is basically a sperm-donor?
Not that it changes the infidelity-factor. Couples can deal with infertility AS A COUPLE using sperm-donors, adoption and whatever. She cheated – clear and simple.

The story seems half-told. A lot of drama, implied threats, implied what-ifs.

In your shoes I would want more clarity. I would want the truth as your wife sees it. Why, who, when, how, timeline… This will be hard to hear and even harder to sit through, but this base is of pan-importance for the future. For your ability to react to the reality you are in.

There is too much drama kicking up too much dust. Let things settle, find the truth according to her and from there you can work towards the REAL truth. With that clarity you can decide and act.

This is very cruel. Doing it twice and planning it. Did you have have any problems to conceive as a couple. As others say you are on your own now. I feel she she has little emotional connection to you and will be vey aggressive in a possible separation divorce. For the time being she is like a adversary (especially if she has little feelings for you). So do your things even better, take precautionary actions to save your interests. It is difficult because of emotions. But keeping your head up is sexy in the face of adversity.

One thing you may not have asked. Why did she think you should be a silent partner to all her elaborate planning to "give" you a "nice" family
You cannot change others. Listen to Tenzin Palmo Jetsunma about attachment on youtube

[This message edited by goalong at 1:10 PM, Saturday, February 5th]

Earlier, OP said he had a low sperm count. His doctor told him to take vitamins and things would be fine. Never heard of that.

In any case, you,are married To a very disturbed woman. Also, an extremely immoral one. I have no idea what you should do but my heart goes out to you and your kids.

Your wife's story is full of holes, very irrational.

Again, she is very mentally ill.

Hi, shouldhavestayedasleep,

just want to lend support and say how sorry I am. Been on these boards for well over a decade and have read some real devastating and heartbreaking stories, honestly I'm at a loss for words. My heart is breaking for you right now , what your wife did is extremely cruel in more ways than one.

I agree with another poster that the OM wife probably found out about the affair, hell hath no fury like a scorned woman. It's the only logical explanation in my mind why your wife would be so obsessed with her. She could have blown up your world at any time if she is privy to the affair, hence the bad, evil person.

I understand you want your wife to seek help, she certainly needs it, but please find support for you. The shock is going to wear off eventually and don't be surprised if anger sets in. Get yourself into counseling ASAP. Talk with your doctor if you need some temporary medications to help you cope.

Biological children or not, these children are still yours. You've loved them, you've raised them, you've nurtured them. They are yours.

Hello SHSA, I'm sorry you're going through this. That talk last night, that's a lot to unpack. There is a distinct "tip of the iceberg" sense to it. It's natural for the mind to speculate about vectors, motives, timelines. For example, your WW's repeated mantra about the AP's wife being dangerous or evil or such, that sounds like the sort of thing a lot of waywards say about the betrayed spouse of an AP, hoping that it will dissuade their BH from speaking with the BOW. That "I did what I have to do" sounds like the sort of rationalization, mental gymnastics, and paradigm shift a lot of waywards go through over time as they figure out how to live with the private demon of their betrayal.

But all of the foregoing is speculation. I suspect that, as Bigger notes, there is more than one layer of "truth" here.

There is the subjective truth from the perspective of your WW now, years after the fact.

There is the subjective truth from the perspective of your WW while she was engaged in the A with the AP (that assumes she's not still engaged in the A -- it's possible they have held this over her head and even recently have been using it to coerce her into sexual activity).

There is the subjective truth of the AP and his wife.

What you know at present is that your WW decided, behind your back and without your input or consent, to be impregnated with the sperm of another man and to bear those children and present them to you as if they were your biological offspring. From what you've posted, I don't know if it's clear that she did it the "old fashioned" (i.e. sexual intercourse) way, or artificial insemination, or other. I don't know if it was just twice or ongoing. There is speculation and innuendo, but no certainty as to details.

What leaps out to me (and others) from your last post is the following:

Her: I did what had to be done for us to have a family. It was painful and cost me a lot of money. You have no idea the hell I went through for this.

Me: What? What did you do? what do you mean?

Her: What had to be done. It was planned this way.

...

Me: Then why are you stalking X? (This was a mere conjecture based on her FB search history, I was right)

Her: Because they are very dangerous people, you don't know how much they have hurt me. I need to keep an eye on them to make sure they are happy and doing ok so they don't ever think to get close to me again.

Me: So the father of the kids is peer?

Her: Yes

...

Her: They are awful, bad, dangerous people. You have no idea what I went through to get her off my back, she wants to destroy our family.

"It was painful and it cost me a lot of money." You were married at the time. If it cost her a lot of money, it cost your family a lot of money. Money your wife spent without your knowledge or consent. Financial infidelity, on top of what appears to be sexual infidelity. I'm guessing the money was not paid to the AP for stud service. The most rational assumption is that it was hush money -- blackmail -- paid to keep them quiet.

Speculation about money aside, a married woman deciding to become secretly impregnated by another man and present those children to her husband as his own biological offspring, that is some deeply messed up USDA Grade A level bullshit right there. Millions of couple experience fertility hurdles. Most work it out together, as a couple, with help from their physician. Millions of couples successfully build families this way, via a range of options from fertility timing to IVF to surrogacy to adoption. In every case the main thing is that they do it together, as a couple. For a decision as fundamental as child bearing/rearing, it is anathema to the very foundational sense of marriage for one spouse to secretly pursue a method of child bearing without the consent or input of the other spouse.

Short term steps: stay off the alcohol. Get as much exercise as you can get. Read about the 180 (in the Healing Library) and start using this to create psychological space for yourself, so you can try to find your heart's truth. I suggest you and your WW set aside regular time, in short blocks of an hour or two, with many days between, to discuss this.

Also, the two of you should get tested for STD's. Even if there has been no sexual contact for a long time, there could be latent infections. Further, the stark reality of medical encounters as a natural result of unprotected sexual contact is often a switch that wakes cheater up from their self-induced world of delusions.

I would echo this:

This is exactly what my WW said too, over and over. At first, I liked that statement. Then I realized it is VERY emotional with no reason to hate someone she willingly has sex with.

The opposite of love is indifference. "Hate" is a passionate emotion. The fact that your WW expresses feelings of "hate" toward the AP and his wife, that means she remains emotionally engaged with them at a passionate level. Be careful.

I would suggest that your next call should be a phone call to the AP's wife. Do it without warning your WW or the AP first. Countless BH's on here have found the AP's betrayed wife to be a comrade, confidante, or a source of information. At the very least, if they have been blackmailing her in some way (which feels like a possibility here), now that the cat is out of the bag, that piece will come to a quick halt.

Edited later: Others have speculated about possible legal rights of the biological father vis-a-vis the children. The rules on this vary pretty widely state-to-state, but in general, if children are born to an intact marriage, where the married couple is having sexual intercourse and the husband is listed as the father on the birth certificate, the law at some point imposes an irrevocably presumption that the husband is the legal father of the child. The law around parentage is primarily concerned with stable financial support for children -- keeping children, as much as possible from becoming wards of the state. The law is also concerned with putting matters finally to rest, so that court resources are not expended bickering about things that happened many years in the past.

That said, in recent years some states have enacted "father's rights" or "paternity fraud" statutes. Most of these statutes appear to have been hastily and sloppily crafted by politicians (none of them are very bright) primarily seeking headlines and spotlight. Many of them were drafted in ways that fail to consider the human subtleties, such as laws that give a rapist the ability to force his way into his victim's life to be a co-parent to a child born of the rape. Under some of those laws, it might be possible for the presumed AP to establish some level of paternity rights, which could be a worry. OP should consult with a local family lawyer to discuss this issue.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 11:20 PM, Saturday, February 5th]

Do you know if she has any text or emails or voice recordings of them threatening to tell unless she pays? If she does, that’s blackmail, and it’s illegal and can be prosecuted.

For her to have kept up this act as long as she has says that she compartmentalized like crazy. She must have decided to give y’all children anyway she could. She chose not to come clean so that’s cheating whether she used him physically or his sperm. I assume it was an affair because his wife is in it too.

Unless she has disintegrated in front of you I would suggest both of you calm down as best you can and then you need to find someone to help you navigate this very tricky legal situation.

If she is threatening suicide call and have her committed. It has happened to men/women whose spouses, when confronted committed suicide. Some of our SI folks have had this happened to them.

After the first month without a positive result, we went to the doctor just to check, a few tests and it turned out I have a low count.

Linus mentioned OP had stated early on he was tested for sperm count. This is OPs statement in his first post. What a crappy memory I have for the last year.

Maybe she knew from the doctor more than he did.

Still infidelity, still a complete betrayal, still is an affair. I still think there is more to this but the OW finding the affair and using that in some way to get rid of WW seems possible.

Asked her if OM knows the kids are his, said he suspected.

If she was looking only for a sperm donor then he would know he is the bio donor (no more using terms like father for him)

Hope you were able to get a little sleep, try and drink a lot of water, eat anything. Take care of yourself, do not end up hospitalized like so many here.

Even if this "Korean soap opera" turns out to be something you can stomach like he was "just" a donor please don't make the mistake of R to soon. The "tip of the iceberg is real" and the truth is usually elusive. Your feeling will change over and over.

Pick up a copy of a short book for both of you. It is required reading!

How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful

by Linda J. MacDonald, Tamara Marston, et al.

Edit to add. You still need an attorney, ButfortheGrace just left a great post. You need to understand your rights and possible problems going forward. It may even help make decisions from rugsweeping, confronting AP or OW, so many reasons you need to pay a good attorney now.

FYI I rugsweep my WW first few affairs in order to raise her daughter as basically a single father and I would do it again. My children and that daughter (adopted later) are the pride of my life. They are now my "love and fun".

Love,

Organic

[This message edited by Organic2003 at 4:33 PM, Saturday, February 5th]

God man. So sorry. I can’t help wondering if this is a contrived story that was prepared in advance for when you found out. It had to be done? Um no.

Your description of how you two talked about it and it was a mutual decision not once but twice is bizarre. Was she fucking him the whole time while having these discussions?

I think she was deep in an affair the whole time and living a double life.

If the AP was so horrible, why the cheery texts?

If you believe her story, that makes her a stone cold betrayer who is so good at it you never once had a clue. She robbed you of agency.

But I think she is a typical cheater who as you have already pointed out probably was at this for years. The I had to do it for you story is her way of further gulling you into believing it was all done so you could have a family.

In any event, it turns out your "best friend" is a liar, a user, a coward. Add to that, she wants to create drama on a false narrative.

You are going to be reeling in pain and disbelief. You must find someone to talk to other than the person that just blew up your world.

And you know what. Her meltdown seems like a way to avoid the truth and make you feel sorry for her. Let her have her meltdown at her sisters house. Don’t fall into the rescuer mode. She will use it against you.