SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm back in counseling for the first time since early after DD. I actually think this guy knows what he's doing and he is asking a lot of good questions, challenges me and it feels like he has an idea of how he can possibly help me.

He's asked a ton of questions and feels that I tend to be a justice/law like person. He thinks you can have a justice viewpoint or a mercy viewpoint and I seem to lean heavily towards justice. So Monday he asked me "what would be an appropriate punishment for my WW?" I kind of think he may be baiting me in to recognizing that there isn't one, but I'm also genuinely considering it as that's the homework he's asked me to do.

I've come to the suggested punishments of: 1) A divorce (still stay together, still be in a relationship) as the divorce officially terminates the marriage. 2) Setting the kids down and telling them. I was adamant about shielding them from my WW's destruction, but I have paid a heavy toll from doing so. They are all over 18 now and may not be as damaged from the information. Plus, it helps them understand why Dad has been off for a long time.

Beyond that, I can't think of anything appropriate or healthy. Certainly not a RA or hall pass. Any ideas? Any good books or reading material anyone has that would help me sort through this?

I do think maybe he's baiting me and is using it to help him help me in therapy, but I'm really taking therapy serious this time. So, if he wants punishments, I'm doing my best to think of them.

I've come to the suggested punishments of: 1) A divorce (still stay together, still be in a relationship) as the divorce officially terminates the marriage.

Why not a post nup if it makes sense and you can swing it? Or a legal separation?

2) Setting the kids down and telling them. I was adamant about shielding them from my WW's destruction, but I have paid a heavy toll from doing so. They are all over 18 now and may not be as damaged from the information. Plus, it helps them understand why Dad has been off for a long time.

Absolutely 100% should be done.

Neither of those options are asking too much. The adult children absolutely need to be told whether you do it together or you do it yourself. DO NOT allow her to tell them by herself and without you. We have pretty much always seen that go very badly as even a seemingly remorseful spouse will often do some blameshifting/minimizing when put on the spot like that.

How is your WW helping you now? Is she still remorseful and has she given you her whys/hows?

I think that's a seriously weird question from your therapist.

What about asking you how your WS can make amends or make you safer?

So Monday he asked me "what would be an appropriate punishment for my WW?" I kind of think he may be baiting me in to recognizing that there isn't one...

I think you might be right. I can't think of one either, but I can shoot holes in the two you've thought of so far if that helps.

Divorce after discovery of adultery is a consequence. As a punishment, yes, you could call it that. But IMHO, it's madness to think it can be a safe tool for recovery. You've taken your pound of flesh at that point. There's no incentive for the WS to dig deep and remediate their broken character. You've cleared the slate and what is is what will remain. You no longer have a right to be angry or hurt because you've taken recompense in the form of divorce. It's just like revenge cheating in that respect. She had hers, you had yours, the score is settled. That is provided, of course, that the WS doesn't take you seriously on that divorce, decide they're single, and move on to other things and other people. Staying together after a divorce is just one of four outcomes after all, the other three all leading to permanent separation.

As far as telling the children goes, that should have already happened. They're over 18. They know something is wrong with their father. It's not about punishing your WW. It's about keeping your personal relationship with each of your children honest, open, and respectful. My adult children were informed immediately, and it wasn't about my WH, it was about me and how I maintain integrity with my kids. In fact, I made a point to let my children know that whatever went on between me and their father was between us, not about them, and they were not welcomed to take sides. I assured them that I'm an adult and so is their father, and we can handle our own business which has NOTHING to do with how each of us relate to them. To my way of thinking, telling the children isn't a punishment unless you decide to manipulate your children's behavior with it, a thing that most parents wouldn't do because it's not in the best interests of the child.

I agree that having a sense of justice can be a large hurdle. There isn't really a punishment that fits the crime and still leaves you in a good position for marital recovery. Early on, I recognized that it's impossible to punish your partner without punishing yourself. Once you've recommitted to the marriage, hurting one hurts the whole. I don't believe I'm even capable of hurting someone else to the degree I was hurt. That kind of pain was a surprise to me. Before it happened, I didn't think anything could hurt me that badly which didn't involve death.

What worked for me was an accounting trick, but this was only after a long time, and after I was utterly sure that if it were possible, my WH would go back in time and change everything he had done. I imagined his debt to me as a monetary one, totted up all that he had done to remediate his poor character and the myriad ways he had tried to make it up to me, subtracted from the balance, and then "wrote off" the rest. That's basically what you do with uncollectable debt, and to my mind, there is no way he can pay me back for the pain he put me through. There's no coin for that.

In reference to what you can tell your IC just so you can have an answer, why not try putting a dollar amount on it? How much money would your WW have to pay you in order to satisfy your sense of justice. Is there any amount which makes your pain and suffering better? If not, why not? Like you, I suspect your IC is trying to get you to explore the subject matter, and this would at least give you a baseline to work with.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 2:41 PM, February 3rd (Wednesday)]

Why does it have to be called punishment - why not consequences, restitution or boundaries?

Is it punishment to have to have 100% transparency? No lies? She has to invest (repay) the amount of effort she put into the A into rebuidling trust? She needs to learn to set good boundaries?

Going with the theme of justice, what would your sentence be?

That's a really good question. I can think of several "punishments" that I could find appropriate, but none that I'm willing to hand out.

I guess, if the most appropriate punishment would be for him to just disappear yet still pay his share of the "family" upkeep. It's what he wanted during his A. To disappear into fantasyland while not causing any friction in his real life.

I think the therapist is trying to help you look at this situation in a different light.

It’s basically what has to occur to help you get past this or move forward or heal?

You could be a person where cheating is just a deal breaker and you are going against your core belief. You are fighting against yourself so to speak.

It’s possible you don’t think your wife was honest to the best of her ability. Maybe that significantly bothers you.

Everyone heals differently. No right or wrong answer in this case. It is what is best for you.

Your choice needs to be what will provide you happiness and a good life. Satisfaction. Fulfillment. Enjoyment. With or without her.

I've never been married, and probably won't. I have trust issues due to several cheating incidents, among other reasons. (And that's why I am scrolling through this site.) Recently, I learned that one and the last of the 2 women I wholeheartedly have fallen in love with in my entire life had cancer and was dying. (We don't have communication, maybe she's not alive now.) My anger with her has never waned since we broke up 16-17 years ago. Her brutal exit from our relationship and her continued life as cheerful and happy as ever afterwards made my wounds never heal. I wanted justice.

So am I happy now? No, of course. I have always been aware that my anger and resentment towards her also contained my love for her. When I learned she had cancer, I didn't know how to feel. I thought to contact her. But what went through my mind was completely opposite; One moment I thought of saying that I always loved and forgiven her, another moment I thought of saying that I hated her, never forgiven her, and wished her be punished for her sins (by the way, I am an atheist, but she is not). I'm not someone who can do the second. Actually, i don't think she even cares. All these years she neither apologized to me nor asked for forgiveness. She didn't even tell the truth, I learned from others.

I'm very sorry she's going to die. I don't see her illness as a punishment for what she did. This has nothing to do with what she has done in the past. It could happen to a good person.

Long story short, not this worse but I wish something bad happened to her as a result of her actions and she knew that it was because of the evil she did.

According to the old testament, death.

According to Jesus, "Whoever is without sin can cast the first stone".

Not a religious man myself, but there is some historic cultural baseline there.

Count me in the ones that don't like the punishment term. I've never been one to go for the eye for an eye mindset. I guess that means I'm in the mercy viewpoint.

My list would be more of consequences or conditions.

1. Open as in honest, authentic and hyper-transparent. The wayward loses any expectation of privacy as they abused that right to perpetuate the affair.

2. Engaged. Willing to do the hard work individually and with the BS to heal for however long it takes.

3. Remorseful about the damage and pain they did to both the BS, themselves, and the marriage

4. Responsible wayward has to own what they did and taken steps to prevent reoccurrence

5. Present wayward has to prioritize being in the relationship, regardless of the pain or guilt, with the betrayed walking the path to healing.

None of those are really punishments and truthfully good partners do most of those regardless of whether infidelity has happened.

I have always believed that when wronged, you can hope for punishment or correction/change, but it's usually impossible to get both (may accidentally happen).

If you pursue punishment as the most important consequence, you can get it and may feel some leveling of the playing field. This feels good, but it may also interfere with a WS's incentive for change. You have no control at that point because everyone is hurting everyone. Change may not happen. Then what? Willing to lose the M? It's your choice. (Example: you can divorce her and insist you still date, but she may decide to move on instead.)

If you pursue change as the most important consequence, you can get the work and the change but you will have to keep strong boundaries and walk the walk. Weakness here may allow the WS to avoid the hard stuff. Not good or helpful. But will the lack of her suffering eat at you forever? Insisting she change often produces the most peaceful and satisying M if the WS actually does the work. Give up your pound of flesh for a solid M? Many find it worth it, but idk.

Pursue both? This can make for a pretty toxic situation. Wanting to punish someone while asking them to jump through hoops with no guarantees--honestly, not sure about the self-esteem of the WS who participate in this. There is a fine line here. I've seen some despicable examples here on SI. I think divorce is a better option than seeking to punish her and change her.

Natural consequences are an indirect punishment, but they are NOT administered by the BS. That is revenge. Consequences need to happen without the BS's intervention or at the insistence/desire of the WS. If your WW offers to sit the kids down because you need honesty in the family (or you are walking), you are not punishing her. If you intentionally try to hurt her by telling them everything so that they hate her, you are.

Not sure, but it seems you need to understand what your boundaries are and how to stand up for yourself and enforce your boundaries. When we don't do this, we want to punish people because of the way they walk on us. But you seem to want to punish her but also keep the M? Good luck with that marital minefield! I'd recommend working on boundaries over justice. Your need to keep the M seems to be poisoning you.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 4:55 PM, February 3rd (Wednesday)]

If I had the power to do so, my WS would need to Divorce me and our family, cut us out of his life (just like he did, during the affair) and marry the ExAP and her children and raise them, provide for them. Play happy fake family, just as he did with us.

Yeah I dunno. What you listed are the “reasonable consequences” of his infidelity according to my counselor. We’ve never talked about punishment but I get it. I know how it feels to want justice but I think people here are right. There is no just punishment or justice in this situation. They will never feel the pain they inflicted on us no matter what we do. It isn’t fair and I think that’s the hardest part for those of us that believe in justice and fairness.

How about a big tattoo of your name on his penis?

Likewise for a WW, tattooing your name on her labia

[This message edited by 20yrsagoBS at 5:56 PM, February 3rd (Wednesday)]

In the hope that my experience is helpful for you...

My wrestling with this question first took on life when wrestling with some incredibly deep anger directed at the AP who was my supposed "BFF" and, even after Dday, tried to find a way to keep the A alive. In my anger, I had a wide variety of thoughts with the worst being how a direct confrontation with him could end with me killing him. That seems like the ultimate punishment.

My conclusion, however, is that it wasn't enough because what I really wanted was full restoration of what had been "stolen". Yet, pushing that idea further, it wasn't really "stolen" and, therefore, able to be returned or replaced in some way -- the reality was that something had been broken beyond repair. There was nothing that the AP could do to fix it and, therefore, any punishment or level of "justice" wouldn't satisfy.

The AP did end up experiencing some natural consequences over time. He lost his job. He lost his reputation as the A became known in the community. His relationship with his kids suffered in ways that continue to linger on. Those aren't insignificant punishments, but none of them really help me at all. While I have made many strides in healing, I still have the psychological and emotional scars from the A and I was the one who had to work hard through the pain in order to recover.

While all of that story is about the AP, there was a similar dynamic I went through about my WW once it sunk in that I couldn't put all the blame on the AP alone. And the conclusions were the same.

I think that this is likely part of what your IC is trying to get you to wrestle with -- that for certain parts of your healing, punishment/justice is of limited to no value.

I have paid a heavy toll from doing so

There very well may be some areas where you are incurring ongoing pain because you've chosen to sacrifice your own well being in an attempt to shield your WW. I see this a bit differently than the general punishment/justice thoughts I shared above in that, in this case, there may be some things which you need to do for your own health that end up releasing natural consequences for your WW to grapple with. If your IC is as good as you sense, he should be able to help you process through this as well.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 7:55 PM, February 3rd (Wednesday)]

I’m a justice minded person.

I had a post nupt. Didn’t help. 20yrsBs and I discussed tattoos, almost talked WH into one.

Waxing his balls did help that once. I felt better for a while. His screams were uhmmmmm........ well, I felt good.

There is no justice. But...... everyone has a price. Everyone. Find yours. Might I suggest frequent vacations with friends or family away from your BS? How about something expensive? Like a convertible to help dry your tears when you cry? A motorcycle helped me. Him watching the kids while I got weekly massages also helped a little.

And here is the thing. You can just say you want future “veto power” over everything she does. It the ability to do your own thing without a care in the world. Because fuck her.

Make your life good regardless of your WS. That is justice.

And waxing his balls helps. I mean. For me. Harder when you’re a dude, and she’s a chick I guess......

ETA don’t let her wax your balls. Just a helpful hint from a fellow BS.

ETA again- the Catholics have this shit down. Acts of contrition. Imma go out on a limb here and say that acts of contrition DID help me feel better. Not 100%. But I don’t appreciate the whole “there is no justice” bullshit. For reals, I felt better with a new vehicle, more money, his hairless balls in my purse, and a yard pass for all future vacations whenever and wherever I wanted. It helped ease my pain. Screw this whole “don’t sink to her level” crap. Sink. It’s ok. She sank you first. You should get yours, my friend.

Making the abused person be better than the abuser? Screw that codependent mentality. Highly recommend the Nissan Bolt, btw.

Make this a “You Renaissance”.

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 11:40 PM, February 3rd (Wednesday)]

Some punishments for adultery throughout history:

Egypt

A thousand lashes with a cane.

Cutting off her nose.

Persia

Throwing her headlong down a well.

Greece

Beheading with an axe.

Branded in the face with red-hot iron.

Made to stand in the town square naked for eleven days.

Dragged behind horses until death.

Rome

The husband could kill his adulterous wife any way he saw fit.

Saxony

Strangled to death, then burned to ashes.

Whipped to death.

Turkey

Drowning.

Castration.

France

Skinned alive.

Let her take her pick...

2) Setting the kids down and telling them. I was adamant about shielding them from my WW's destruction, but I have paid a heavy toll from doing so. They are all over 18 now and may not be as damaged from the information. Plus, it helps them understand why Dad has been off for a long time.

I cringe every time I see people lie to the kids. You aren’t protecting them. Just keeping them in the dark which causes them more anxiety.

2) Setting the kids down and telling them. I was adamant about shielding them from my WW's destruction, but I have paid a heavy toll from doing so. They are all over 18 now and may not be as damaged from the information. Plus, it helps them understand why Dad has been off for a long time.

Yeah, you should have done that a long time ago. If they were cheated on, would you want them to talk to you?

After the affair your WW and you need to realize lies never help anyone. Keeping the kids in the dark will only make them feel that if they are cheated on they should hide it as a shame as well.

As for the Punishment line. I received that as well from my IC. Punishment guy here too. Anyone who doesn't like that word, you are in the mercy camp. It isn't weakness, it is just like parenting. Sometimes you have to punish a child so they do the hard work to not repeat bad behavior. You can't reason away some bad behavior.

Let me give you the next question your IC will give you if he was anything like mine. (they read a lot of the same books)

"What could she give you to make you satisfied to stay?"

Then he hit me with, "So if you didn't leave yet when you were as mad as you have ever been, then why leave now when you are calm and she is trying her ass off to make you happy?"

The IC is trying to make you realize that there really isn’t any appropriate punishment for her infidelity. Plus – if you really think it through – there is no punishment you can control that won’t probably harm you too.

Keep in mind that the traditional view on punishment is that you pay for your crime with the punishment. Once it’s over you don’t owe society the debt anymore. Is there anything she could do that has those consequences regarding her affair?

Let’s look at possible outcomes from the two you mentioned:

The divorce idea – since you two have +18-year-old kids I’m assuming a long-term marriage with the usual bevy of family-home, she staying home when the kids were young and the typical husband being the main bread-winner/wife being the typical home-maker.

If you divorce because you WANT to divorce and for the reasons divorce is usually done, then fine – it’s not punishment but a consequence of how her actions changed how you feel about her. I would all day every day recommend someone divorce rather than stay in a loveless marriage they don’t believe can be fixed. It has always been my view that if you do divorce by the law and are reasonable then it’s doable with as little conflict, pain and cost as possible. Still conflict, pain and cost – but minimized.

If you divorce as PUNISHMENT… If she were my sister and asked me for advice, I would ALWAYS suggest she stick firmly to the law regarding divorce. Namely ensuring she got half the value of the marital assets. After all – divorce changes A LOT of things, including her future financial security.

There are even built-in safety features in the process to ensure the divorce is “fair” within the definitions of the law. Even if your wife signed a heavily loped agreement forfeiting her share of your pension, money for the house and all that then in most (if not all) states a judge would ensure she understood what she was doing, had legal representation and was mentally capable of making that decision. If the judge had any doubts, he could even order a court-appointed attorney to ensure her rights and charge the marital estate for the cost.

It’s basically the same logic as to why post-nups after infidelity seldom work: they are considered signed under unjust duress.

So, the “punishment” of divorce but still living together has cost you your share in the marital home (because you wanted to keep your pension intact) and some $$ in legal costs and fees.

Then there is telling your grown-up kids…

I am all for honesty and think exposure can be a great tool to help a marriage. I’m perfectly fine with telling your kids. But why assume they will ostracize her? I’m not suggesting they will approve of her affair or give her high-fives, but I’m guessing they would respond in the way nearly ALL those that haven’t experienced infidelity first-hand do:

It was a ONS 12 years ago and she told you about it. Get over it. Stop punishing her. Yes – it was definitely wrong, but it was only one time.

I think telling your kids is a great idea. But I think it’s a great idea for the reason you mentioned: To explain why dad has been so distant and off. Not as punishment, but more as a consequence to explain possible changes they might have seen in you. It is done to help them contribute to your healing.

The “punishment” IMHO is when your wife looks across the room where you are sitting in your favorite chair - maybe even napping – and thinks about how lucky she is to still have you. When she feels a physical hurt in her heart when she realizes what pain she caused and what she risked.

------

Frankly – I think the worst infidelity possible is the infidelity I dealt with. You probably don’t agree and think YOUR infidelity is the worst – and you are perfectly correct. What WE experience is the worst… However, there are positives in your story based on your profile. It was an ONS and she came to you to confess. I know those positives are rather shallow – like being told you were only stabbed 5 times and not 6 – but they ARE positives in the infidelity-context.

What have you two done to recover? It’s been quite a few years since the ONS, and I would have hoped that you were in a better place.

You state that now you are taking IC seriously. I suggest you focus on that. Irrespective of if you remain married or divorce you will still be looking at yourself every morning in the mirror. Liking what you see, feeling good about yourself and your decisions makes that so much more enjoyable.