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Federguy - I just want to echo the comments that Bravesirrobin made. I think you may be unknowingly sending out vibes. It could be that you let the "less than saintly" dude out a little more after the A and you are drawing in a girl who like's "bad boys", or that you might look a little more for validation as your wife's behavior has you feeling less attractive? Do you not find it really strange that this seems to be happening on a more frequent basis. There is definitely a change in your vibes somehow.

There are many Waywards that would say they never dreamed of having an affair. I can look anyone in the eye and tell you that for over 20 years it never even crossed my mind. I never found myself attracted to anyone else, and I never sought out male attention. I was judgmental at those who had affairs, and would never have thought myself capable of it. If there was a poster child for someone no one else thought would ever do something like this - it sincerely was me. BSR is right, you are in dangerous territory.

I also like Chamomille's statement - it sound like you all would have a pretty good R on your hands if the sexual stuff could be fixed. Her defensiveness of the situation is very concerning, and speaks volumes of she doesn't know or want to accept the seriousness of the situation. You really need to ask her if being defensive about this is worth a divorce down the road. I am not saying threaten divorce to get sexual acts. I am saying that she needs to know that IS what this is going to eventually lead to and at least be told why she needs to take this far more seriously than she is.

Intimacy is a barometer of marriage. I am not saying it's sex...it's intimacy. She gives you a good amount of sex, but it's not helpful if she gives you zero amount of intimacy. I am stating that not to beat a dead horse but maybe to give you some language to think about in your talks with her. I think she needs to go back to IC and deal with why she can not be vulnerable with her husband. It's a huge red flag to me. I honestly don't think it has anything to do with you or whether she is attracted to you. I believe she would be like this with anyone - as you said she is modeling her mother's behavior. That's part of proof it has nothing to do with you.

The longer this goes on without you feeling like the two of you can talk about it, the more isolated you are going to feel. The more isolated you feel could possibly help you to take a turn for the worse (divorce, affair, etc). I isolated myself, and didn't talk to my H. I wish someone had given me that insight. If you end up cheating (I know you aren't considering it at the moment) it will be on you, not on her. It will be on you for not talking to her about it. I have been there done that and wouldn't type this out other than to save you from getting more and more on a dangerous path. No judgment from me - just the two of you need to discuss this, she needs to go back to IC, why waste years on something that could be changed?

I agree I am on a slippery slope. I need to figure out how to make myself seem unavailable. How to stop sending out those vibes.

I am going to try to have a real conversation tonight with w about intimacy, and my need for it vs her lack of interest. I’m going to try to frame it in such a way that she doesn’t just hear “I am unhappy because you don’t suck my dick very often”. A BJ is always nice, but that’s not what I’m missing.

[This message edited by Fenderguy at 1:49 PM, June 3rd (Monday)]

I am glad to hear that.

Yes, if she thinks it's just a complaint about BJ's that's not going to go very far. I don't really hear that, I hear that you want her to want you. Not just go through the motions. Want to expand your sex life into love making? Organic, kissing, touching, etc. You want to be able to give her pleasure and by denying you that it feels empty. That you feel lack of connection because of it?

You said she trusts you, she needs to know that you do feel temptation towards some of these advances because of the current situation. She needs to hear serious, not husband wants more oral. In fact, I have heard you complain more on here that you aren't allowed to give her that.

I am just still talking to help give you some words? I hope it goes well. If you can get her to listen, that in itself will be cathartic for you, I believe. Best wishes, I hope it goes well.

Fender

You and I have discussed this before on other threads.

I would frame it with 2 different aspects.

1) discuss how you can feel that she is no longer attracted to you. Let her know that in order to be in a loving relationship with someone that you need to feel their desire for you. That without the feeling that she wants to touch your body, and receive pleasure from you and give it back, and give openly to each other physically that you cannot enjoy being in the relationship. You need to be with someone who enjoys your touch, not repulses from it.

Let her know that you understand that she may feel this way, but that conversely she needs to understand that you cannot stay long term if that is the case. If she has truly lost her desire for you, then ask her to be honest about that. It’s something very hard to fake, and quite honestly neither of you deserve to be in a relationship where one of you doesn’t desire affection from the other.

And in return you need to be honest to her that you cannot stay forever with someone that simply lets you use her body for sex without connection, emotion or physical attraction by both parties. That unless that changes you will need to find it elsewhere and you won’t do that while still married.

2) let her know that rebuilding such connection requires assistance from professionals. Counselors and perhaps even a sex therapist are probably necessary if you are going to actually rekindle what you once had.

Let her know that you are willing to put in that type of work in order to get to a place of satisfaction in your relationship with her. Convey that you are doing and saying this because you love her and are IN LOVE with her.

But if she cannot commit to the same kind of work, then you can no longer promise to stay in the Marriage with her.

Honestly tell her if she is mentally blocked from feeling affection from you because of FOO issues or A issues, that you understand those things and you want to help her get assistance for those things, but unless she’s actively working to improve the situation those issues have created, that you cannot continue to be her husband while supporting her.

So ask her honestly if she can commit to not only attending those type of sessions with you, but actually driving them for you as a couple. If she is interested in saving the relationship and really does care about and love you she will take up the responsibility of ensuring you both get the help needed to make you both happy in the relationship.

Hope any of that helps Fender. I wish you good luck in discussing this with her.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 3:07 PM, June 3rd (Monday)]

Love this ^^^ Much better organized and better framed. Good luck!

You are definitely on a slippery slope, fender. My WH’s affair started with friendly banter with a COW that he never saw as a potential anything. She had a much better looking friend that I was always concerned about to be honest. Her friend was beautiful - the COW was ok - nothing to leave your wife over or any cheat on if you asked me. But when you combined his resentments that he never shared with me - and the COW told him she had a crush - all of a sudden just like that it was like a switch flipped and everything changed.

What happens if the next girl is different? Whatever energy you are putting out there is bad news. I would’ve told the person that said they had a bad day “that sucks” and turned away because I am not trying to make conversation with single guys at the bar. I’m just not. There was no need for you to engage.

Please just be honest with your wife. Don’t be so afraid to confront her about this issue. I wouldn’t be happy with that level of intimacy in my marriage either. There is nothing wrong with going to her and saying this needs to get fixed or I’m out.

I agree I am on a slippery slope. I need to figure out how to make myself seem unavailable. How to stop sending out those vibes.

I am going to try to have a real conversation tonight with w about intimacy, and my need for it vs her lack of interest. I’m going to try to frame it in such a way that she doesn’t just hear “I am unhappy because you don’t suck my dick very often”. A BJ is always nice, but that’s not what I’m missing.

Boundaries aren't just for WS. If you haven't read Not Just Friends, it might be an excellent first step. In a nutshell, Shirley Glass' "walls and windows" technique can be described as opening a big, wide window to your spouse and putting up a strong wall against potential interlopers. By the time some 26-year old is comfortable enough to start telling you her boyfriend drama, your wall is permeable. And frankly, if your WW had come home and told you some guy had bellied up to the bar and dropped the ol' "my wife doesn't understand me" razzle-dazzle on her, you'd see the line of demarcation pretty quick, right? Same thing.

In terms of having the conversation with your wife, don't be afraid of conflict. Conflict is your friend when you're problem-solving. That said, if you don't know what her physiological status is, don't make assumptions. I read a study just today that says up to 75% of females don't have an orgasm through intercourse alone and 10-15% never get there at all. So, it's not always a case of a woman just hating sex. For some women, the only reward is cuddles and being there for her mate. I'm honestly astonished at how quickly people can assume that some women are just frigid by choice. Imagine you're a guy with ED, and sure, the wife doesn't mind being patient or whatever, but how do you feel when her persistence isn't paying off? ..when all her efforts are still resulting in Mr. Floppy? Try to take that kind of empathy with you into the discussion. And don't be discouraged if this becomes a series of conversations rather than just the one.

I keep hearing phrases like "lay your cards on the table" and "she deserves to know"...

Know what...what cards? He didn't do anything, did what he was supposed to do as an honorable man. There are no cards to lay on the table. The rules of life now say that we need to mention to everyone we meet that a random person told us they found us attractive?

The only upside here, at best, is that she laughs it off. The downsides is less that she regresses her own bad behaviors, but more that she doesn't allow him around his best friend and his wife any more.

Dude, best solution, whenever that girl shows up, just go home. When your friends ask why, tell them the girl is too forward and makes you uncomfortable, and then maybe they will run interference the next time you all go out and not invite her at all.

A~

Hey Fenderguy, followed your posts since you got here. Haven't posted in this thread as others have given the same feedback I would.

But....the "happy wife, happy life" term really irks me. Through my WW's A's, I did my share of housework, took care of my son's logistics, I cooked, cleaned, stayed home so she could get away from the house to have sometime for herself, all of it. I felt if I wanted to have some free time, I need to provide at least as much as she did for me.....a lot of good that did me!

I know a lot of guys that subscribe to the "Happy Wife" crap. These guy's get run over. I told myself a long time ago, if I turn into that guy, I'm done.

I do my fair share of the household work and earn a very good salary, so does my wife. We are very comfortable. Why shouldn't I have some expectations equally with my wife?

Sounds like sex is important to you. It is also important to me in a relationship. My wife knows this. If my wife treated me the way you describe, I dont think I could just suck it up and deal with what she determines it to be, how is that equitable? She absolutely has the choice to not listen to your needs, just like you have every right to place the importance you do on your sexual relationship.

For me, sex is a way of connecting with my wife, making her feel good is a turn on for me. My WW's sex drive has fallen off in recent years, but she understands how important it is to me and places a high priority on it. Just like I place a high priority on her priorities. Give and take.

Your WW's response to the girl propositioning you was hurtful. As BH's (not meant to make this a women vs. man thing, I only speak from my experience :)), my ego was and still is in the dumps. She chose someone else, gave something I held in high regard to some random guy that didnt give a flying f#ck about her. I know, it wasn't about me, my abilities, etc. Heard all that, understand it, but subconsciously, I still really struggle with feelings of inadequacy.

Kind of went on rambling there! Just want to say, don't accept less that what you feel is reasonable for the sake of making your wife happy. A relationship is a 2-way street.

Aplomado-

You didn’t read the thread. We are encouraging him to tell her he is not satisfied with his relationship with her. He already told her about getting hit on...

I tell my WH when I get hit on. He gets upset, but knows I don’t cheat.

I don't like the, "Happy wife, happy life," adage, either. That's what my fch adhered to. When he couldn't achieve, he felt like a failure and cheated.

So the other night my wife “threw me a good one”, so to speak. I think she could tell that I’ve been distant with her the last few days. There was actually some foreplay, some intimacy, and she seemed to show significant signs of life during the sex. We then had a conversation about how I’ve been missing times like that, and how I feel unattractive to her, etc. She cried and said she never felt that way, that she wants to enjoy an active sex life with me. She says that she actually enjoys the doggystyle poundings, and that more often than not she has “low key orgasms” from them. She reminded me that not every orgasm is a full blown porn production, but that she does have them. She clearly did the other night. She admits to getting lazy about sex, that we seemed to find a routine that worked for us and that all the other pomp and circumstance just kind of faded away. She even let my hands roam free!

This happens occasionally. Once the status quo returns, and the next stressor occurs, she’ll be back at it. But I feel good that I at least communicated some of my needs. Truthfully, she’s not all that bad... but man do we need some help in our relationship. I don’t know if Mc or ic is the answer.

Here is a thought I've had about your WW from time to time based on your posts. If I'm way off base and/or fullashyte, feel free to ignore me.

It sounds like your WW likes to compartmentalize, organize, and plan her life. Her approach to sex is sort of like that: take it out of the box, use it, put it back away.

So, perhaps you schedule sex. And not just the date/time. Schedule the events and duration. Actually put it in your calendar. "Tuesday, 6:30 p.m., sex in the den, starting with oral sex on me, then me on you, then..." Obviously you'll need her to agree to the calendar item, but the point is that you'll have the discussion about it separate from the actual doing of the deed.

As Tuesday afternoon approaches, remind her of the scheduled evening events with a little wink. "Honey, only 4 hours until 6:30." Then go on about your business.

At the scheduled time/place, rendezvous and get your mo' bettah blues. Then clean up and go on about your evening.

Fenderguy - Virtual high five. Please, please, please - now that you have opened the discussion keep it ongoing. Communication is a two way street. She didn't react at all in the way you thought she would, and she seems to genuinely care about your feelings. It's like was said the other day, if you could build on this you may really have a chance at a happy life together and that would be wonderful for the both of you and your children. I am so happy you spoke up, and chose to be vulnerable. It's okay if she cried a little it means she connected with what you were telling her. And, now you also have a piece of information that will help you on those quickie evenings and that is she enjoys those too. You just need to diversify and mix it up more often.

I really am not surprised she was surprised that you thought she wasn't attracted to you. I didn't hear that in what you were saying. I have been the mom of young kids, making the balance all work is tricky and we do get caught up in our to do lists, and we get stuck in our heads. Encourage her to take a long bath in the evening while you get the kids to bed, or offer to give her a massage with no strings of sex attached. She probably needs help relaxing more. Working moms never feel like they do any one thing well - and the last one we take care of is ourselves.

I see where BFTG is going, but since your complaint is that she does plan it and you would like to be more organic, keep moving her towards that. Again, hard with little kids around, but as they get older it's easier and easier to find those opportunity. As a mom, I did like to try and pick out evenings when I wasn't exhausted and I think it's probably more that than compartmentalizing. One thing my h would do during those days, is he starts it all in the morning to build anticipation. He would come up behind me while I was getting ready for work and kiss my neck or grab my hips. He would send me a few flirty or loving texts during the day. If our evening allowed (kids activities can really be a killer) he would cuddle me on the couch after dinner or finish the dishes and tell me to go have a soak. I am not trying to enforce choreplay, more helping her to find a balance and set the mood for more than a quickie.

Best of luck to you both. I think you guys can tackle this!

FG, really happy to hear of the progress and a good night! Small positive steps can get you back where you need to be. IC or MC might make it happen faster but open communication and effort may also do it.

Agree on the flirty texts, or whispers out of ear shot from the kids so there's a build up to when the time is right. Planning and working on this stuff together can be fun. Maybe not every night but a great positive step.

I agree that a long run goal is a relationship ship where expressions of desire occur organically. But in marriages, including marriages without infidelity, sometimes partners get stuck in a behavior loop. It can take a lot of baby steps to get out of the loop and achieve even a simple goal. My suggestion is to separate the discussion/agreement about what you will do from the actual deed, where a discussion could become fraught and dysfunctional. A baby step. Not a long term fix.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:38 PM, June 5th (Wednesday)]

I would not tell her. She never told you about POSOM flirting with her.

Did that girl hitting on you put a little pep in your step?

I would not tell her. She never told you about POSOM flirting with her.

Did that girl hitting on you put a little pep in your step?

Jimmy, WTF! And then his wife went on to cheat. Is that the behavior he should emulate? Do two wrongs make a right? No!

[This message edited by ibonnie at 9:11 AM, June 5th (Wednesday)]

Fender. A good first step and discussion.

Don’t stop reminding her that pomp and circumstance are important too.

I think you need to be specific and let her know that her showing she enjoys your body shows you how she feels attracted to you and her letting you explore hers tells you that she feels safe with you.

Those things are important to a healthy relationship.

In return feel free to promise her that you’ll deliver on whatever she asks for as well.

I’m glad you had a fun and connecting experience.