SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

feelingthenooseagree, there are some situations where a spouse trying to get out of an abusive marriage the right way needs to lie in order to protect themselves. We are actively involved in a local abused family shelter and telling the truth would only get them trapped. Don't give me the shit about police protection or restraining orders. That shit doesn't work. Those spouse (yes there have been men too) need to lie till the day they exit to keep safe. They are leaving their spouses for good. Not cheating on a bad situation, but leaving and having the courage to do the right thing, the right way.

The talk went well. Yesterday/last night/today have been very busy for me, I’ll post an update later. All I can say is we have needed to have that talk for over a year.

One thing I will say for now is that the friend did know about the sexual part of the A (not during the time it took place). The emails were just about her humiliation and the fallout from the emotional affair, and how good I was about dealing with it/her. WW apologizes for sometimes flossing over the sexual aspect, because for her what really hurts is that she allowed herself to become involved with another man, let alone a liar who was banging 3 other women (including his wife).

let alone a liar who was banging 3 other women (including his wife).

If I could give every W one piece of advice, it's this...

Stop this. Forever. Don't ever bring up how hurt you are that the person that you are betraying your BS with is a lying liar who lies. How the ever living fuck is it worse somehow for you that YOU were lied to? Conversely, would it have been better if you were the only one for him?

If you feel this way, and you are a WS, shut up about it, forever. It's delusional.

That is great news. You deserve to have the life you want and it always seemed like you wanted to have your wife and family in tact. I hope she steps up for you!

Stop this. Forever. Don't ever bring up how hurt you are that the person that you are betraying your BS with is a lying liar who lies. How the ever living fuck is it worse somehow for you that YOU were lied to? Conversely, would it have been better if you were the only one for him?

If you feel this way, and you are a WS, shut up about it, forever. It's delusional.

I don't think she was saying she was hurt that the guy did this to her and that he was a liar. I think she is saying she is hurting because she knows what she has thrown away/lost due to that and due to her actions with this loser (not that it would have been any better if he was some great guy). And that is what hurts her to know what she did and for who she did it with is humiliating. She is hurting because she knows her self worth was so low that she allowed herself to be used by him. I don't think it reflects that she is hurting because of him, she is hurting because of her own actions.

And that is what hurts her to know what she did and for who she did it with is humiliating. She is hurting because she knows her self worth was so low that she allowed herself to be used by him.

Salt in the wound. If a WS is actually remorseful, among other things, the WS is going to be in pain due to the reality of the fucked up stuff she/he did. Self-anger.

If a WS is actually remorseful, among other things, the WS is going to be in pain due to the reality of the fucked up stuff she/he did. Self-anger.

That is what I am saying. Her anger and hurt should not be and I don't think is directed at the AP. I think she is hurting because of what she did and her own actions. I know I am. It makes me sick and that is a point I find myself fixating on. Never getting to that place again. Never having such low self worth.

I think she is saying she is hurting because she knows what she has thrown away/lost due to that and due to her actions with this loser (not that it would have been any better if he was some great guy).

This is precisely my point. It shouldn't be mentioned to the BS, ever.

First off, the AP is inherently a bad person, simply due to the fact that they are having an affair. Even if that wasn't already the case, there is zero distinction between having an affair with a great guy, or having an affair with a piece of trash.

If she's humiliated, maybe bring that up with a counselor. NOT with your BS.

If she's humiliated, maybe bring that up with a counselor. NOT with your BS.

Maybe that is what works for you. I think it varies. My BH said to me he didn't want to hear anything about me hurting or any feelings I had toward my AP and being hurt from that.

But I have expressed to him my feelings around the affair and how I feel now and the guilt/shame/sadness I feel. I think that needs to be expressed. That I hurt because of what I did and that I hurt him. I feel like a piece of shit, I feel like scum. He needs to hear that.

I don't think Fenderguy's wife was trying to play the victim.

If I am wrong, may the other BS' that disagree please post, but I doubt any one of us want to hear about how our W is saddened that they got it wrong about their AP.

It's not playing the victim, it's completely rendering the pain of the BS invalid.

The converse of that statement is awful, no matter how you cut it. The affair would have been less disgusting if the AP was a great guy? The affair would have been worth it if you had actually left for the AP? Less embarrassing if your affair with the AP was the only one that they were having?

No. The statement is, I fucked up when I let another person into this marriage. Full stop. It isn't more or less awful, embarrassing or understandable no matter what you add to the end of that sentence.

The most successful iterations of R are built on a cornerstone of complete honesty and transparency. Certainly explaining a thing isn't the same as excusing it. But in my worldview, if a WW or WH has, among other things, realized that the AP was really not a good person, this would be an honest thing to discuss if the timing is right.

if a WW or WH has, among other things, realized that the AP was really not a good person

Alert the media, Lindbergh baby kidnapped.

It's not the realization, or even discussing it...

because for her what really hurts is that she allowed herself to become involved with another man, let alone a liar who was banging 3 other women (including his wife).

It's everything starting with "let alone".

because for her what really hurts is that she allowed herself to become involved with another man

Adding the part about banging other women has ZERO to do with any accountability for the affair, or remorse.

Pink is right on the money. My WW has always been a smart person. A good person. She is seen as an almost saintly person in our community. She isn’t religious, but she is just a giving, compassionate person who is very involved in our kids school. The fact that she allowed herself to fall for the lies of somebody of such poor character really fucks with her mind. She feels she has lowered her life to that of a common whore. She’s ashamed of the fact that she had an affair, first of all, let alone with such a lying Sleezebag. Now i get that my wife was also a lying sleezebag during this time, and she agrees with that.

I don’t take her affair personally anymore. I don’t think of it as something she did TO ME. Maybe I’m unusual in that aspect. I don’t feel like I need her to kiss my ass the rest of my life. I don’t think that if I had a bigger dick, or gave her more flowers or whatever would’ve made a difference. In the summer of 2016, our marriage hit a low point. This dude came along at the right place, right time, and they had chemistry. I’d be lying if I said that in the 13 years that I’ve been with my wife that I never felt a spark or chemistry with another woman. I just never went with it.

I am not trying to rug sweep her, and if we are to truly R there is still a long road ahead. I will post more about our conversation when I get home tonight and can clear my head.

It is good that you have had that talk with her.

One of my biggest regrets about this whole debacle is the fact that after the year when I raged, I just went into emotional hibernation. I didnt want to talk about my pain, and I certainly didnt want to hear about hers. So we just existed. Truthfully, she tired to reach out, but she had no bridge to get to me.

In the end, when I told her I was done, she was in a way blindsided. she knew things were not good, but after 5 years she had thought that the danger of divorce had mostly. I say mostly as she did say she always felt the shoe was going to drop, but that she would have had a better idea in that there would have been a bigger lead in to me pulling the plug.

I do feel badly about this. I didnt have the financial concerns, and my kids were grown so it wasn't about getting my ducks in line, but more that this was no way for either of us to live our lives.

I am glad you are no seeming to the a better route.

Anyway, I feel that after the talk, we are finally on the same page. I told her that I'd been wrestling with thoughts of divorce, which caused her to effectively break down crying. She gained her composure after a few minutes. She had no idea I still felt that way. I told her that it wasn't really the infidelity in itself that I was struggling with... not anymore. It was that she had pretty much tried to sweep it under the rug, and also that she was more of less treating me like her brother or some kind of roommate. I told her we don't need to be married to each other to co-parent effectively, and that I might be more involved as a single parent. I told her that I had been picturing what my life would be like as a single man, and it wasn't awful.

I also told her that I really would prefer that we could just work out our issues and stay together. I apologized to her for basically just going awol the last 1.5 years, instead of trying to fix us. Because D or R, either option is a step in the right direction compared to the way we've been living. At this point, my main reason for wanting it to work out is for my kid's sake, and for keeping the family together. I told her that it's up to her to show me that she's worth trying to rebuild a relationship with.

She did her fair share of crying, begging, bargaining, etc. I told her about some of the women on SI who were truly remorseful wives. She told me that she wanted to be that for me. That she wanted nothing more than to stay with me, rebuild our marriage, raise our children, be grandparents together, etc. She apologized for minimizing the sex with her AP. She said in her mind, when she reflects on the affair, she almost never thinks of the sexual part. She thinks about how stupid she was to seek the companionship of this OM.

He was funny and they had great conversations about things like literature, religion, politics, philosophy, things I don't really ever talk about. Sharing deep thoughts lead to long discussions on messenger and emails. Eventually, they got to complaining about their spouses to each other. Started off with just little things, then it grew into how unhappy they both were. She was attracted to him, but never really thought about him in a sexual way. At some point, he kissed her, and it felt good so she kissed him back. From there it escalated quickly. She claims they had sex either 7 or 8 times. She swears it was nothing to write home about. They didn't do anything that we haven't done. WW hasn't really given many BJs to me in the last few years, but did give him a few. I asked to explain that, and she said he just kind of expected it, and would more or less just put it in her face and say "here it is!" She says it was never for more than a minute at most, always just done during foreplay. She says the sex wasn't incredibly long or memorable, and that she never orgasmed. Things like anal or swallowing were never even discussed. The whole A, from the beginning of the EA to the day that she found out she was one of 3 APs was 2 months. So she could be telling the truth, or it could've been the best sex anyone ever had and she's sparing my feelings. Whatever. I actually think I'm over the sex part of it. If what she says is true, it was actually a fairly tame PA I'm finding out. I know to take her "truth" with a truckload of salt, but I'm fairly satisfied that I know the truth, as her story hasn't changed or shown any cracks. I know as much as I'm probably ever likely to know.

She has promised to be a better wife. She said that since I had been so detached since Dday, she didn't really know how to approach me or be affectionate or intimate with me sometimes. She blames herself for not trying to find out these answers. I told her I really didn't know how to be intimate with her anymore, as her A and the year of no sex that followed kind of got us out of sync, sexually. She agreed that we need to have better sex more often. She agreed that now that our kids are no longer infants/toddlers, we need to focus on each other more and not put 100% of our energy into the kids.

Also, she claims to have had ZERO contact with the AP since before Dday. It all came to a head when one of the other APs had found out the truth, and confronted my wife. She found out this guy had been having sex with 3 APs, and his wife too, on a regular basis. How he could keep that straight I have no idea. By the time m wife had learned the truth, his BS had already been informed by the other woman. That's when she told me, because she figured somebody else would tell me before the day was over. She said she never even saw him at the kid's school again. AP and his BS got divorced, and they all moved out of our town. She swears she will never cheat again, that it has ruined her life, and that she loves me too much to ever put me through that much pain again. She said even when I was pretending to be fine, she could see that I was dying inside. That she felt so helpless because she couldn't help me, because she was the cause of the problem. She did IC for awhile, is on anxiety medicine.

That's pretty much all I've got for now. I think she gets what she has done to me. I think she thought I was either over it, or that I hated her so much that I didn't want to speak to her unless necessary. Fire away, I'm sure the pro D brigade will be on my ass!

This was a great conversation. Kudos to you for having the cajones to take this step.

Here is something to consider. Communication between the two of you on this has been nonexistent. Learning to communicate will be awkward for both of you. It might be helpful to acknowledge this awkwardness expressly. "Honey, I have no experience communicating about stuff like this, so please forgive me if I seem awkward or I put my foot in my mouth or something like that. I'm trying because you are my wife and I love you and I want to communicate with you."

So how are you guys planning to approach the sex thing? One thing you see recommended by sex therapists for couple experiencing intimacy issues is an effort to have sex on purpose frequently, like every day for 14 days or some such. The reason for this is because every day for 14 days is difficult to do. It requires an effort, which in turn requires the couple to discuss the sex. It also opens the door for alternative definitions of "sex." For example, it does not always need to include PIV nor end with a male orgasm/ejaculation. "Sex" can include sexual touching, frottage, one-way oral, etc.

The most important thing is to use this as a springboard and keep the momentum on the sex conversation.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:20 AM, July 25th (Wednesday)]

Well, I'm not part of the pro-D brigade (although that is what i chose to do).

I'm part of the "words are easy, watch their actions" brigade. Your WW may have been completely genuine in what she said. She may have meant all of it. However, it is very difficult to actually enact all of those things she SAID she is going to do. You will have to watch her actions in the coming days and see what happens.

Your detachment was natural. And necessary. You needed to protect yourself. This was your WW's opportunity to show you that she really loves you, by putting you and your needs first. She didn't do that. Now after your talk, the necessity for these actions have been made clear. Will she start to do that? If she does start, will it continue, or will she go back to what she is used to?

Change for any of us is not easy. My recommendation to you is that you stay detached and see if your WW is willing to make those changes. She blew up the marriage, it on her shoulders to repair it and rebuild the trust by her ACTIONS, not words.

This is a good start. Keep up the conversations. There are so many starting points to rebuild intimacy. Not just sexual. Romantic, and love.

I understand what you mean about the sex not really bothering you. At the same time. It’s there. It’s more the...you found the time, the energy, What about me? You want to feel you are it and you are exciting.

I think you should switch MC and find someone to truly help you both rebuild. And communicate. This other MC has suited you both because she hasn’t forced communication. Or should I say taught. This lack of communication is what will ultimately ruin the marriage.

I believe her when she says the sex was secondary. She loved the talking. As I said before the OM would have talked about anything to get into her pants. He didn’t have 4 women on the hook talking about politics.

You both can have differences and still find joy in one another. Find and discover common things. There are things the both of you like to do together. Also find a babysitter for once a week.

This will sound so counter intuitive....flirt with her. You know how. It makes a big difference.

I agree with Glasses. I think your wife, at this point, is being as honest as she can be. Of course she is looking at her affair differently than she was when she was in it, and has had time to realize what it really was, so that is reflected in her words. I do think she is minimizing it for your benefit, but I don't blame her, like you said, the facts are there, do you really need all the dirty details.

I also believe her when she says she just didn't know how to go about approaching you. She probably felt, why rock the boat, just be ok with status quo.

I think this is where communication is SUPER important, the wall has to come down, you have to be willing to push her. She has to be willing to do the work. Don't be ok with status quo, speak up. I remember having a similar conversation with my BH saying I cannot help you with a wall up, we have to talk, you have to let me in.

I think you still have a lot of work, but it is really promising. You are far enough out where the anger is less and you can actually focus on healing each other. At least now you know you really have tried it all and said what you needed to say, she knows what you need. There is no getting around it.

**Edited to add: Like your wife I had "so much in common" with my AP. Then I came here and read about love bombing, I had never heard the term. Basically my AP crafted it to seem like we had so much in common, because he had one end game. He knew what he was doing, and like your wife, I found out after the fact I wasn't his first affair. Can your wife see that the "so much in common" is what this guy does to get what he wants? That it is all orchestrated, that he pretends to be so interested in her and her thoughts and ideas, that when he leans in for a kiss, well, its hard to resist (same thing my AP did). I hope your wife can see that, if she can't point it out to her, and have her google love bombing.

[This message edited by pinkpggy at 8:56 AM, July 25th (Wednesday)]

Fire away, I'm sure the pro D brigade will be on my ass!

Nice!!! Generally speaking I'm pro divorce, but it sounds like a marriage worthy maintaining Fender.